Massive Multiversal Crossover: Interest Check and Signups

[Earnest Evans]

<Snipped quote by Earnest Evans>

Fair enough.

Seriously though, she only has some of his abilities, not all of them. As far as the series has gotten, she can't generate a reality marble, or make multiple copies of NP's in midair (IIRC). And she's not as good at it as Archer himself is. And if she burns through all her prana, she'll cease to exist. So it isn't that bad.

@Flamelord

Come on, we know those aren't major setbacks. Reality Marbles are nice, but being able to summon Noble Phantasms beats that the fuck out. Not being able to make multiple copies of a Noble Phantasm certainly wouldn't stop you from creating a single instance of the most powerful one and roflstomping anyone who isn't another Fate character or similarly powerful. Being limited by prana hasn't set back any of the other Fate characters I've seen in other multiverse RPs, since nobody ever bothers to keep track of it.

Archer! Ilya is an immensely overpowered character, and is almost guaranteed to end in colossal power-wanking between the three or so characters who can keep up. At least Superman is largely restricted to what he can look at or touch.

Beyond that, Ilya can get prana from other people. It's not even very difficult, just smooch a comrade or grapple someone.

[Flamelord]

<Snipped quote by Flamelord>

Come on, we know those aren't major setbacks. Reality Marbles are nice, but being able to summon Noble Phantasms beats that the fuck out. Not being able to make multiple copies of a Noble Phantasm certainly wouldn't stop you from creating a single instance of the most powerful one and roflstomping anyone who isn't another Fate character or similarly powerful. Being limited by prana hasn't set back any of the other Fate characters I've seen in other multiverse RPs, since nobody ever bothers to keep track of it.

Archer! Ilya is an immensely overpowered character, and is almost guaranteed to end in colossal power-wanking between the three or so characters who can keep up. At least Superman is largely restricted to what he can look at or touch.

@Earnest Evans

That Reality Marble is Archers trump card. It is a fairly big deal, like Saber using Excaliblast is a big deal. And what's 'the most powerful one' anyway? Using Excalibur as more than a sword would kill her, she can't even make something like Ea period, and she can't exactly match either Archer himself or Gate of Babylon when fighting.

This isn't regular Fate Ilya. She isn't a homunculus, but a being made of magic that has to use magic to exist, much less fight. As a result, I don't think it will lead to power waking, I will try to not do so, and I trust others will call me on it if I do.

[Earnest Evans]

The Reality Marble is effective, sure, and it is an important part of Archer's concept. However, since this is Archer's powers we're talking about and this isn't a strictly Fate-based game (where Archer's reality marble would be actually necessary to succeed), you don't need a trump card to steamroll the opposition.

There's always a Noble Phantasm that's useful for a certain situation, and, Ilya being Archer, has largely-unlimited access to a majority of them. The line between "I think Ilya can use this" and "I don't think Ilya can use this" will be almost entirely arbitrary (as it really feels like it is in kaleid liner PRISMA, to be honest). Archer is basically Batman with magic hammerspace instead of plot hammerspace. That they won't be able to pull out the Bat-Davy Crockett or the Bat-Omega Force is not a great restriction.

I know you feel like you'll be able to keep yourself from engagin in powerwanking, but it's almost impossible to avoid that with a character like Archer. Being able to pull out (nearly) any weapon you want at will, with the only restriction being a nebulous amount of prana that won't be near-depleted until you think you can get away with it.

I don't want to sound like an ass, but this character is gonna be a huge strain on the trust of anyone RPing with you. Archer!Ilya is a character with nearly-unlimited potential, and is going to force the general power level of the RP to extracosmic levels wherever she goes.

I mean, I know she's not as powerful as Gilgamesh, but that's not a big difference since she's still got most of his powers, an easy way to regain prana, and poorly-defined powers that will generally result in you being able to pull out a big "I Win" button whenever you want.

It really feels like you're trying to sneak in Gilgamesh under a pretense of "no guys this version is totally weaker".

[Raineh Daze]

So... just don't have wholesale creation of new NP's to suit various purposes. Which, oddly enough, actually means Archer's abilities aren't that scary, because all the horribly broken swords are impossible to copy.

Also, something that I don't know: if this isn't main-canon Ilya and instead has limited mana, is it limited at or below canon Archer's stocks? I can see a bit of a problem if we still have infinitely-powering-Herc amounts of mana, but that limited makes NP's an impractical choice.

[VitaVitaAR]

... Archer is definitely weaker then Gilgamesh though.

Gilgamesh can use all the Noble Phantasms he wants aside from a few very specific ones at full power. Archer can only get anywhere near full power as a ranged attack that destroys the weapon. Gilgamesh is also only trumped by a few Servants in melee range and he can fire Noble Phantasms like they are coming out of a railgun whenever he wants. He's also not restricted to weaponry and has near-impenetrable armor.

Without UBW, anyone using Archer's abilities is severely restricted, especially if they can't utilize the projectile functions like he can. Tracing is limited strictly to only things that the user can understand by looking at and analyzing them as well.

Archer!Ilya doesn't even have all of the functionalities of canon Archer from what I understand.

Canon Archer, if anything would be broken about him, it would be Unlimited Blade Works. That is something to be concerned about because fighting him there would be extremely difficult. His usual tactics, though, are dirty tricks and dual-wielding with occasional actual archery thrown in when he gets the chance.

I'll look at the bio in more depth shortly to see if anything actually could be abused, but I'm kind of baffled by the idea that Archer is as broken or moreso than Gilgamesh.

[Earnest Evans]

Keep in mind that, when you consider "broken", you're going by Type/Moon mechanics, where the baseline of power for a Servant is "can shrug off bullets to the spine". In a game where almost all combat is basically Dragon Ball Z, Archer being able to summon Noble Phantasms at will and use them quite well is fine. In Fate, powers are vaguely-defined and the power level starts at about the same level where Luke Cage starts having to think outside the box.

In a game like this one, where most characters are at or somewhat above "street-level superhero" and don't have Rank C Speed, someone like Archer is a godly-powerful monster of a man. Archer!Ilya at the power level described here would be fully capable of going toe-to-toe with many of the characters here and winning by a landslide. Noble Phantasms are serious shit, and being able to bring up even a "mediocre" Phantasm is basically the equivalent of being able to pull a +5 Vorpal Blade straight out of the air at will.

If you're going to keep true to your promise of Ilya having limited prana and only being able to summon up a few Noble Phantasms, I'd probably make a list and actually keep track of them as you go.

[Flamelord]

Also, something that I don't know: if this isn't main-canon Ilya and instead has limited mana, is it limited at or below canon Archer's stocks? I can see a bit of a problem if we still have infinitely-powering-Herc amounts of mana, but that limited makes NP's an impractical choice.

@Raineh Daze

I'd say around canon Archer's level, except she's always existing on Independent Action. Of course, that's ultimately up to Vita.

And if it's really a problem to the GM, I can limit her to Kanshou + Bakuya, Excalibur, Cadalbolg II, Fake Nine Lives, and Rho Ais. Really, the advantage she has on Archer is that she can do stuff with her prana besides Projection, due to the knowledge she has from the Grail War (For example, reversing binding magic, removing seals, firing balls of prana, basic magic like that which will also cut into her reserves at the same time)

But really, up to the GM in the end

[Earnest Evans]

And if it's really a problem to the GM, I can limit her to Kanshou + Bakuya, Excalibur, Cadalbolg II, Fake Nine Lives, and Rho Ais.

@Flamelord

Oh yes, I'm sure being able to use Excalibur, one of the greatest Noble Phantams that turns anyone with magical abilities into a super-superhuman, Rho Ais, a shield that blocks damn near anything (including Noble Phantasms), Caladbolg II, a sword that completely penetrates any magicall defenses and is a really good sword otherwise, tied with a wide variety of useful magical skills doesn't make this character overpowered.

You've got a grab bag of ultraweapons, the ability to summon them almost at will, and the powers of an excellent Mage on top of that!

[IncredibleBee]

Isn't Excalibur one of the strongest NP's though?

Besides, in Fate, most characters only get like one or two NP's as a trump card. Being able to summon that many all at once is pretty broken even by Fate standards.
If I were you, I'd choose lesser NP's, make a list of which ones specifically, and keep track of prana usage and stores.

[Raineh Daze]

<Snipped quote by Flamelord>

Oh yes, I'm sure being able to use Excalibur, one of the greatest Noble Phantams that turns anyone with magical abilities into a super-superhuman, Rho Ais, a shield that blocks damn near anything (including Noble Phantasms), Caladbolg II, a sword that completely penetrates any defenses and is a really good sword otherwise, tied with a wide variety of useful magical skills doesn't make this character overpowered.

You've got a grab bag of ultraweapons, the ability to summon them almost at will, and the powers of an excellent Mage on top of that!

@Earnest Evans

So wrong on count one, wrong on count two, wrong on count three, and a bunch of things that are less significant than characters who simply happen to have a wide variety of swords.

FFS, if limited to the first three we have:

1) Suicide attack (Projecting Excalibur is not feasible more than once. Literally. And it's only useful if you USE the thing)
2) Extremely exhausting shield against ranged attacks.
3) Caladbolg: actually seems to mostly create an explosion. Since it fails to hurt Berserker with a direct hit, Saber being in the explosion radius, or do more than scratch Shirou, it's not actually that huge.

Now, Archer's actual use of NP's in UBW? Caladbolg II whilst he still has a Master. There's Rho Aias and UBW after that, but that almost kills the guy, and he's not even doing the insane 'charge these things with mana until they break' trick there. Plus it almost kills him. You're exaggerating.

That is: you're exaggerating the threat. This does not actually disrupt the general power balance.

Isn't Excalibur one of the strongest NP's though?

Besides, in Fate, most characters only get like one or two NP's as a trump card. Being able to summon that many all at once is pretty broken even by Fate standards.
If I were you, I'd choose lesser NP's, make a list of which ones specifically, and keep track of prana usage and stores.

@IncredibleBee

See the suicide comment. Only time Excalibur's properly copied in F/SN? Kills Shirou in the process. All the NP's are crippled compared to default. Kanshou and Bakuya don't have particularly amazing abilities.

[VitaVitaAR]

Um, feeling a little worn out right now so not actually going to go into bios, but...

Excalibur doesn't do that at all. It's a sword that can fire a giant destructive wave I'm fairly certain anyone derived from Archer can't use. Otherwise it's just an unbreakable sharp sword. Rho Aias can be broken through but it takes multiple impacts to knock off all the petals, and Caladbolg II... is admittedly a bit harder to discern but it doesn't just magically penetrate all defenses and is actually not usable as a sword given its shape. The others... I'd have to look at more honestly which I'm not doing right now.

[Flamelord]

The others... I'd have to look at more honestly which I'm not doing right now.

@VitaVitaAR

Fake Nine Lives is Hercules axe thing without any of the benefits from it. So it's basically just a big axe.

[Earnest Evans]

<Snipped quote by Earnest Evans>

So wrong on count one, wrong on count two, wrong on count three, and a bunch of things that are less significant than characters who simply happen to have a wide variety of swords.

FFS, if limited to the first three we have:

1) Suicide attack (Projecting Excalibur is not feasible more than once. Literally. And it's only useful if you USE the thing)
2) Extremely exhausting shield against ranged attacks.
3) Caladbolg: actually seems to mostly create an explosion. Since it fails to hurt Berserker with a direct hit, Saber being in the explosion radius, or do more than scratch Shirou, it's not actually that huge.

Now, Archer's actual use of NP's in UBW? Caladbolg IIwhilst he still has a Master. There's Rho Aias UBW after that, but that almost kills the guy, and he's not even doing the insane 'charge these things with mana until they break' trick there. Plus it almost kills him. You're exaggerating.

@Raineh Daze

It barely matters how "crippled" these weapons are compared to their true forms, because their true forms are only not immediate game breakers because of plot armor. Excalibur is one of the greatest swords in the setting almost purely because of its innate abilities (it's almost Red Key-tier sharp and can be swung about as quickly as a damn lightsaber).

Our only idea of how "bad" Rho Aias is is when it's compared to motherfucking Gae Bolg. Even a severely-crippled Rho Aias would be an impenetrable shield on par with just saying "it doesn't hurt me"!

Caladbolg, meanwhile, completely ruined Caster in one blow and, even when it didn't beat Berserker, it turned a large portion of the cemetery they were in into a smoking crater, and then destroyed a hill top with it. Even severely crippled, Caladbolg is basically a man-portable bunker buster.

Beyond that, there seems to be a severe issue with how you've listed them as usable by Ilya. If these weapons very nearly killed the original Archer while using them, why even list them as possible for the apparently weaker Ilya? It's guaranteed to kill her if she makes them!

This is exactly why you need to strictly define what you can summon up and how draining it is to do so. Otherwise we run into situations where Ilya will be able to make objects that the other Archer very gave himself a hernia doing so.

Archer is a Fate powergamer's favorite class, and I'm really seeing a lot of powergaming fuel here.

[Raineh Daze]

<Snipped quote by Raineh Daze>

It barely matters how "crippled" these weapons are compared to their true forms, because their true forms are only not immediate game breakers because of plot armor. Excalibur is one of the greatest swords in the setting almost purely because of its innate abilities (it's almost Red Key-tier sharp and can be swung about as quickly as a damn lightsaber).

Our only idea of how "bad" Rho Aias is is when it's compared to motherfucking Gae Bolg. Even a severely-crippled Rho Aias would be an impenetrable shield on par with just saying "it doesn't hurt me"!

Caladbolg, meanwhile, completely ruined Caster in one blow and, even when it didn't beat Berserker, it turned a large portion of the cemetery they were in into a smoking crater, and then destroyed a hill top with it. Even severely crippled, Caladbolg is basically a man-portable bunker buster.

Beyond that, there seems to be a severe issue with how you've listed them as usable by Ilya. If these weapons very nearly killed the original Archer while using them, why even list them as possible for the apparently weaker Ilya? It's guaranteed to kill her if she makes them!

This is exactly why you need to strictly define what you can summon up and how draining it is to do so. Otherwise we run into situations where Ilya will be able to make objects that the other Archer very gave himself a hernia doing so.

@Earnest Evans

Er, Excalibur's only notable strength is its ability. A fragile, breakable variant of a sharp sword is not actually that big a deal. Also, projecting said thing isn't an option outside of heroic sacrifices.

Rho Aias is an extremely mana intensive shield against ranged attacks. So, it might shield people from an equally-powerful attack, but there goes most offensive ability.

Caladbolg: so we're comparing it with actual artillery? In that case, I don't see the problem. It's nothing special in the RP.

Exaggerating.

[Zobozun]

I'm unfamiliar with Fate, but wouldn't that mean that there'd be no point in having Excalibur on the CS in the first place if it's too expensive to ever use?
I mean, if it's that draining, then just summoning it would deplete her mana and cause her to cease to exist the second she tried it, right? So, like, that's not even a suicide attack, really. It's just flat-out suicide.
That seems a bit silly is all. You might want to trade it out for something cooler and more usable.

[Raineh Daze]

I'm unfamiliar with Fate, but wouldn't that mean that there'd be no point in having Excalibur on the CS in the first place if it's too expensive to ever use?
I mean, if it's that draining, then just summoning it would deplete her mana and cause her to cease to exist the second she tried it, right? So, like, that's not even a suicide attack, really. It's just flat-out suicide.
That seems a bit silly is all. You might want to trade it out for something cooler and more usable.

@Zobozun

Eh, Archer never projects it; Shirou only projects it to use it. Arguable that it can be projected (though that seems more mentally damaging) but there's no worth in it without activating the ability... which drains all of Saber's mana for ONE attack. Saber eclipses them. Hence the suicide.

[Earnest Evans]

<Snipped quote by Earnest Evans>

Er, Excalibur's only notable strength is its ability. A fragile, breakable variant of a sharp sword is not actually that big a deal. Also, projecting said thing isn't an option outside of heroic sacrifices.

Rho Aias is an extremely mana intensive shield against ranged attacks. So, it might shield people from an equally-powerful attack, but there goes most offensive ability.

Caladbolg: so we're comparing it with actual artillery? In that case, I don't see the problem. It's nothing special in the RP.

Exaggerating.

@Raineh Daze

Don't try to pull that "fragile" stuff. Unless you're going to be counting hits left on the Excalibur, the only chance you're ever going to let the thing get broken is if someone else breaks it for you.

Again, we don't see very much use out of Rho Aias that isn't blocking super attacks from an immensely powerful Noble Phantasm, so we don't have a good idea of just how expensive it is to use.

No, not every character has the ability to project a room-clearing missile. Almost every character has small, directed attacks that would only hit a couple targets at most. You still haven't touched upon the issue with the fact that you've got Noble Phantasms and the laundry list of magical powers Ilya has and is proficient with.

Are you going to actually describe a limit to these powers and keep track of Ilya's prana levels, or is this just going to be a "as I decide it" thing where you'll whip out Excalibur and Rho Aias and Caladbolg ad nauseum until the battle's over, and then collapse from prana exhaustion? An infuriating number of people I've played with in Fate RPs decide to make Archer and then completely ignore the whole "summoning Noble Phantasms is draining" aspect until it's most convenient for them.

[Zobozun]

Yeah, so if it drains all your mana and instakills the character the second they make an attempt at it, is that ever gonna come up? And then without it it's just a kind of shitty version of the other swords, so it's like why even have it when you could use that space for something cooler?

Like, I dunno, Kusanagi or Tyrfing or whatever. Something fancy.

[Raineh Daze]

Yeah, so if it drains all your mana and instakills the character the second they make an attempt at it, is that ever gonna come up? And then without it it's just a kind of shitty version of the other swords, so it's like why even have it when you could use that space for something cooler?

Like, I dunno, Kusanagi or Tyrfing or whatever. Something fancy.

@Zobozun

Death-or-glory. It's a powerful attack, yeah. But you're knowingly killing off the character doing it.

<Snipped quote by Raineh Daze>

@Earnest Evans

You seem to fundamentally misunderstand things about NP's. The cost of their abilities is not a randomly variable thing, and being a higher rank doesn't inherently mean that it's a better sword in combat. Excalibur, even if NOT projected, is not a OHKO sword of doom in melee. Rho Aias is not a feasible defence against anything you're not expecting to promptly annihilate you if it hits. Results aren't something you can just dial down; making Caladbolg II a quite literal artillery piece. Not a highly-versatile short-range explosive.

[Earnest Evans]

You seem to fundamentally misunderstand things about NP's. The cost of their abilities is not a randomly variable thing, and being a higher rank doesn't inherently mean that it's a better sword in combat. Excalibur, even if NOT projected, is not a OHKO sword of doom in melee. Rho Aias is not a feasible defence against anything you're not expecting to promptly annihilate you if it hits. Results aren't something you can just dial down; making Caladbolg II a quite literal artillery piece. Not a highly-versatile short-range explosive.

@Raineh Daze

And all of this calls into question why you'd list them at all. Why would Ilya need a sword or a shield that's only good for killing her? Why would she need a weapon that's only good for destroying rooms and also nearly kills her?

You've already got damn-near unlimited utility with your Mage skills, and a very good reason to use weapons that don't drain prana like water in a desert. A moderately-cheaper Noble Phantasm loadout would not only require you to think more outside the box than copying Archer's moveset, but would actually allow your character to use what they've listed on their sheet.