[OOC] Running and Gunning - Higan Vs. The Magna Pater

[LeeRoy]

I'm in tears. You're literally arguing the difference of 15 degrees.

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead

You've been the one trying to pick apart posts from the start. And nowhere in your post did you say it was Higan's estimation. You changed your description of the damage from one post to the next, and what's more there would be a dull, metallic clang even if Higan squished Slimy. Remember the lair's acoustics? What do you think would be louder, the squish or the mech's arms and legs clattering about and sending off hundreds of echoes?

This is like what happened when Higan tried fending off Slimy with the barrel of his rifle. It's a moot point so I move on, figuring that like how Higan didn't trip over any of the hundreds of tree stumps he made during the first chase, I could have Slimy dart about without you telling me so slight an obstacle would impede it, and with enough force to alert the pilot inside of a 30 ton mech.

Let's bring in @Drifting Pollen again to make a decision.

[MelonHead]

It is like the barrel of the rifle, you completely ignored something, again.

You're still assuming I'm arguing your character would be impeded, which although I believe is true is not what I've argued at all, I'm arguing that your post ignored the obstruction of the pauldron and therefore I was like to interpret your character knocked into it during its escape, revealing its location. That's all there is to it.

Regardless of which, the main issue here is you then rolled in with a post with OOC knowledge fixing your mistake of ignoring the pauldron in flagrant disregard of the rules, when you should have instead contested if Higan could use the pauldron in the fashion I said. However, the disadvantage is all yours, the fact is you chose to ignore something which is plainly obvious in the reference picture because you've decided it was irrelevant, when the situation clearly dictates it is not.

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead

I didn't fix a mistake, I made clear an assumption. Your interpretation conflicts with the action my character carried out, as it hadn't struck anything or met an obstacle worth mentioning.

Your idea of relevant and irrelevant correlates to how useful something is to you from an O.O.C'ly standpoint. Anything that has the potential to be abused, you'll find a way to do it. I'd stake money on Slimy being able to pass over that pauldron without bumping into it, because its entire fighting style is literally the element of surprise. It's been a master of stealth for nearly two-thousand years, and when I decide to do what Higan did with the hundreds of stumps that were ignored, you pitch a fit.

[Drifting Pollen]

Tricky one here. Technically, having the Pater effectively knock into something on its way out, which in this case proves to be a critical mistake, is an auto of the character... on the other hand, the pauldron is clear on the reference picture, and Doc Doctor did ignore it completely, and similar situations would result in viable hits (e.g. someone walking into a magic circle).

I'm with Doc on this one, though. Technically, Melon would have been justified in writing that the Pater knocked against something if a) he had prepped in some manner (for instance, in the post where he slammed back into the wall, he might have described shifting his right arm into a position that would make the pauldron a greater obstruction), or b) if it had been a very obvious obstacle (something the Pater would have trouble getting over). In either case, if Doc had ignored it, that would have been an oversight on his part. However... based on the reference picture and the size of the mech (and a couple of handy measurements), it ain't that big. Heck, I could probably jump over it myself, if for some reason I found my frail human self trying to get off the mech. Essentially, Melon's argument is viable in theory, but in practice the pauldron is too small to be plausible as an obstruction, and thus having the Pater essentially crash into it (a mere brush would be difficult to 'feel' from inside the mech, unless it has pressure sensors or something like that) is pretty much assuming it's hella weak and/or lazy.

Tldr; the Pater makes its jump unobstructed.

[MelonHead]

Jesus christ, your character literally clambers across the floor like a snake-bat. Unlike the Mech, who we can assume would bound over obstacles because it runs around on two legs, your character has shown to clamber over them and slither around, while doing so it alerted Higan, that's all there is to it. Not to mention, your character gained huge ground on Higan despite him running at full speed, so it's not as if he could have been keeping up. If I was trying to exploit the pauldron in the way you're describing I'd have argued you couldn't avoid the chain-gun because of it, I wouldn't have used it to set up my characters next move as he improvised his way through blindness. There's no reason to assume that Slimy would suddenly start leaping and jumping over obstacles when it would be quicker to clamber over them, especially considering the context it was in, which is why you failing to mention a different form of movement works in my favour.

An analogy then, my character sets up a raised pit-fall trap, the opponent runs over the ground. In my next post I say the pitfall activates, in their next post they say actually their character jumped over the entire trap because why wouldn't they, it's a minor inconvenience so it makes sense to just leap over it like a salmon when running would be quicker. You're saying it's impossible to refute that? There's no mention of Slimy leaping anywhere, only lunging and throwing its weight around, which would suggest a rolling motion if anything. Just because the obstacle is there and Slimy has the capacity to deal with it doesn't mean Slimy is going to deal with it perfectly, particularly if you don't even bother mentioning it.

[MelonHead]

Tldr; the Pater makes its jump unobstructed.

@Drifting Pollen

What jump?

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead

It shoved off with its arms, and in doing so would have cleared the pauldron. Obviously its not going to do some pussy lunge and drag its rotting body across Higan's chrome dome, let alone the pointy piece of metal that's literally right beside it.

[Drifting Pollen]

What jump?

@MelonHead

I seem to recall it moving from being basically on top of the mech to landing on the bone-covered ground to its right. The movement was described as a "lunge," which is a little unclear, but the same post made it obvious that the Pater was in 'midair,' making it clear enough that it was a jump.

[MelonHead]

<Snipped quote by MelonHead>

I seem to recall it moving from being basically on top of the mech to landing on the bone-covered ground to its right. The movement was described as a "lunge," which is a little unclear, but the same post made it obvious that the Pater was in 'midair,' making it clear enough that it was a jump.

@Drifting Pollen

Uh, it was in mid-air because it fell off the Mech. If you imagine the situation as Doc obviously did when writing, completely ignoring the pauldron, you can see that Slimy would throw itself rightward and over the Mech's shoulder and then fall to the ground, it didn't need to jump in that scenario, it's only now that Higan has used the pauldron to feel which side the creature jumped off his Mech that it's suddenly became a majestic high jump.

Ultimately, Doc's failure to include relevant information has led me to enact a strategy I thought I was well within my rights to use, as the Mech's pauldron is clearly shown and could easily have been interacted with on the departure of a 300kg creature. Because of this, I've now revealed my plan, pretty much the only way I could think of to even hit a creature that has avoided bullets from literally five feet away while simultaneously blinding the Mech. I can't retrieve that tactic, so I'm put at a disadvantage because my opponent did not include a painfully important part of the Mech in his hasty escape, nor describe the act of evasion properly, which has been a pretty pervasive trait throughout this fight. If I'm working with an incredibly vague opponent, how the hell am I supposed to do anything? The creature is hard enough to hit as it is.

Also, what the fuck am I supposed to do instead? Should Higan remain stock-still and just wonder what's going on, can I look rightward as a guess or do I have to look left because otherwise it would be meta-gaming? Can I move away from the creature or do I have to move towards it? There's really no good follow up for me in this, as Doc can and probably will accuse me of meta-gaming if I do anything other than write 'The Pater wins at everything'

[Drifting Pollen]

If you read the post, he states that it 'shoved off with its tail and both arms.' It was obviously moving itself with significant force, not simply sliding to one side. The other thing is, it supposedly lands two yards to the mech's right, which seems a bit far for just a fall. Last but not least, who/what in their right mind would fall off something when they could jump?

Part of the reason you even have me around is to get an impartial reader for all this, and when I first read that action, before any of this mess went down, it seemed pretty obvious to me that it was effectively jumping. Perhaps not majestically, but I've already made it clear that it didn't need go particularly high to get clear.

Also, you earlier said:

I said it would have had to pass over the pauldron to clear itself off the Mech, impeding its progress and revealing which direction the Pater jumped off.

@MelonHead

Which leads me to believe you had a good idea of what Doc meant to say.

As for hitting the Pater... I see a few ways this could potentially be done, but to try and give you hints would be cheating. I'll just say that, based on a previous experience, it doesn't seem impossible to me at all.

[Drifting Pollen]

Also, what the fuck am I supposed to do instead? Should Higan remain stock-still and just wonder what's going on, can I look rightward as a guess or do I have to look left because otherwise it would be meta-gaming? Can I move away from the creature or do I have to move towards it? There's really no good follow up for me in this, as Doc can and probably will accuse me of meta-gaming if I do anything other than write 'The Pater wins at everything'

@MelonHead

What do you think Higan would do in this situation? So long as there's plausible reasoning behind his actions based on IC evidence, it's unlikely to count as meta-gaming.

Alternatively, if you really do want to have him guess, I can provide coin-flips... though I'm hoping that won't be necessary.

[MelonHead]

Well, I'm not convinced by your argument. I think if Doc had meant for the Pater to launch itself off the Mech as you say it would have gone a hell of a lot further than six feet, that's for fucking sure. His creature is freaking 16 foot long and has broken ribs, yet it's clearing the Mech and landing just six feet away without knocking into the arms at all, absolutely ridiculous. How is its massive snake-like body doing that? Seriously what the hell is happening in this movement, it makes no sense. It would probably have fallen on his fucking sniper rifle.

I'll tell you who would fall rather than jump, someone escaping a chain-gun firing literally two feet away.

Whatever, I have to accept the ruling though it's somewhat unfortunate that I'm put at a massive disadvantage after my opponent ignores a relevant part of my character. Unfortunately I can't really think of how to proceed, so I'm leaving this fight until I've finished some real life stuff and if I still find it as fucking stupid as I do now I'm burning it, as the last two posts have effectively ruined whatever semblance of logic still remained.

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead

Higan has his mighty armor for defense, Slimy has its ninja skills. Thing is, though Slimy poses an immense threat to any biological life form due to its toxins and ability to regenerate off the meat of its enemy, that shtick doesn't work on Higan. It has no direct way to inflict real harm to the pilot or the mech, and one direct hit would blow its lean, mean, smelly and squishy body right the fuck apart, and an indirect hit could take off one of its arms or its tail, severely crippling its ability to avoid further damage.

The Magna Pater's only saving grace, only advantage, only chance to have a chance, is by being the best damn dodger it can be. Even then, it's already lost half its face, three ribs, and the tip of its tail.

I'm not saying that Higan should be taking more damage, no. I'm just justifying the capacity of the Magna Pater's evasive skill in this battle.

[MelonHead]

As my previous post has been overruled and no longer makes sense I'll be editing it accordingly, you can expect my post to be there when I say so here.

[MelonHead]

Finished my essay, made my edit, recovered from bout of melancholy, ready to kill aliens again.

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead

Finished. I sent Pollen the details of the Magna Pater's next series of actions to keep them from being too easy to guess.

[MelonHead]

I should point out that's not the form of fighting we're working on, what exactly do I have to work with if I know literally nothing about what your character is doing? My character does still have his senses you know.

[MelonHead]

You know, self-cannibalism healing is never mentioned in your sheet, which is a pretty serious oversight. There's nothing in your sheet to suggest targeted regeneration, so presumably if it ate its own wings they may just heal back again.

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead
I'm done with having Higan constantly "guess" where the Magna Pater is. All I can say is that he can't see what he can't see, so it will be a threat from outside of his newly limited vision. You can ask @Drifting Pollen yourself if my secret moves are fair or not, but you'll not be getting any hints. You need to be in the dark as much as Higan is to keep things on the straight and narrow. But seriously, no more of this convenient instinctual stuff unless it turns out that Higan really is damn good at looking in the right direction at the right time.

And Slimy's autocannibalism is about as fair as Higan's anomoly vision and grip sensors. At least I had provided a link to the thread where it used its selective autocannibalism before, back on the first page, rather than simply invent it out of the blue.