It's just that the way you wrote it sounded like it was an attack on males.

Another thing to bring up is why video games have traditionally been a male thing, even when games were made for supposedly girly things (like Barbies). Part of has to do with what males tend to be interested in as compared to what females tend to be interested in. There was a study done by some college (I can't link you to it; I went over the 3rd party article quite briefly) that recorded the language used by men and women (in the US, I think) and compared the two sets. Men, generally, by their choice of words, seemed to focus on things and ideas, whereas women focused on people-and this is quite telling, if one hadn't already realized this from experience. Males tend to focus and care more about the ideas of things; the painter who's obsessed with his work itself, the carpenter focused on his project, the civil servant focused on equality. Females tend to focus on connecting with others-they're extremely social, frequently get into things to connect or interact with other people more than for the medium itself.
Why this is relevant to the supposed 'intrusion' of girl gamers is that video games, until recently, were pretty much all single player or hyper competitive, which tends to be more of a male thing. There wasn't much (perceived) connection to be had, and thus is just wasn't a medium that generally appealed to females. Today, though, how many games are multiplayer-or can at least be turned into a social connection via conventions, videos and the internet? Quite a few, meaning that they're becoming more appealing to females (again, in general). This can also lead, though, to a loss of the very setting or style that the males who popularized and have quite loyal thus far (and have made a safe haven of/in) these mediums, which, from their point of view, is a bit like stealing land from an already poor neighbor.

Jorick said Turt's nonsense and those responding to him are getting off topic though, so everyone should probably do the smart thing and not bother responding to any more of his shit stirring here in the thread.

I resent that, I want to have a serious conversation about the pseudo-intellectualism of Off-Topic.

e: And the need for antagonists who actually make you question WHY you're doing something.

Brovo said
... Dude, that's a pretty sexist statement right there. You nailed it. Gold star. Well done. Thanks for pointing out that it's a grey issue, not black and white. Wish more people held that opinion.I always found it equally amusing when a woman demands to be considered attractive for what she is--fat, or otherwise--then usually turns around and applies an unrealistic set of standards upon men to qualify for dating. Then wonders why they're forever alone with three cats.To clarify: Sexual standards does not always equate to sexism. A guy may find big breasted women in chainmail bikinis attractive and not be a sexist in the same manner that a woman may not want to date a guy who is short or obese. Or a bigot. This is just how humans work.If anything I'd say it's not so much a hatred of women in your example as it is a case of Peter Pan syndrome--not being able to grow up past their fantasies and escapisms and attacking anything that might threaten that, female, authority figure, or otherwise. They also tend to be the same kind of rabid fans you might find obsessing over sports, or fashion, or god knows what other thing we can obsess over in groups. You always have zealous extremists who attack anything that might threaten the image. That's more of a problem with extremism than it is specifically sexism, sexism in this case is just the byproduct of a flawed design.

That applies to both genders, me thinks. I've seen my fair share of repulsive men with such bad hygene that a sewer mutant would find them repugnant who want a girlfriend so badly, but their standards are so insanely high bar that it's impossible to achieve. When Jabba the Hutt wants a Swedish bikini model and won't settle for anything less, you're looking at a man who is single handedly keeping the tissue paper industry afloat with maxed out credit cards for a list of smutty websites with about six innuendos in the title and about 15 x's. Of course, the girls you mention are their own unique brand of awful, and I guarentee they have quoted that dumb fucking Merylin Monroe quote about if you can't handle her at her worst, you don't deserve her at her best like it's some kind of excuse for justifying shitty behaviour and standards. If I had a shot every time I saw that quote on Facebook, I would haved died from liver failure years ago.

And sure, everyone has sexual standards, what you're describing is no different than somebody not being sexually attracted to someone of another race. Doesn't make them racist, it just means they aren't attracted. It's also why there's fetishes people have of dragons fucking muscle cars, people wanting to be cooked alive and prepared like a meal, or fucking goats. Most people think that's goddamn weird, but somebody obviously finds it hot enough to make it known across the internet.

No, what I meant was the guys who actively discriminate against girls from participating in their hobbies and go out of their way to be dickbags about it to try and drive them off, be it a lard ass Cheeto breathing DM in a Dungeons & Dragons group who actively screws over a girl's character to a 13 year old Mountain Dew Butt Chugger who tells a girl on Call of Duty to get back in the kitchen to get him more Doritos because mom refuses to buy more until grocery day while insisting the girl isn't a real gamer and so on. It goes beyond a meek awkwardness where they feel something sacred is being defiled by the presence of vagina like a D20 filled El Dorodo being ransaked by bombshell Cortez and her Sexy Spaniards, which is still sexism, no matter how you cut it.

I mean, shit. The Taliban throwing acid in girls' faces for having the audacity to go to school is still sexist even if they think it's against their religion and culture to have woman have equal rights. While a mouth breathing girl bashing nerd isn't throwing acid at the chick who dared sit down at his wizard table (god, I hope not), he's still being sexist even if he's having the foundations of everything he's ever known and loved turned upside down by a maiden who rather swing a battle axe than be rescued from a tower while not dressed like a total skank. Just because he hasn't experienced this thing called women in his life and doesn't know any better doesn't mean you can justify him acting like a triple necked cocksucker towards a girl who dare show interest in his passion. It's like saying you can justify Bieber for being an insufferable little drunk driving dick because he's young and got too rich and famous too quickly, having never been told no since Usher summoned him from the depths of YouTube to terrorize the world like some kind of douchey looking Eldrich Horror.

Anyways, on-topic.

A friend of mine was in a Con game where the DM refused to actually acknowledge anything she said, or really that she was even at the table. My male friends who were with her were dumbstruck that they had to relay anything she said about in-game actions or speech to them first before the DM would do anything about it. She couldn't get her head around how someone could actually act like that, but he literally did not seem to accept she was part of the game except that her character seemed to be doing things. Everyone stuck around for the game to see how bad it could get, except one who texted everyone under the table that he was running for it before leaving "to take an important phone call."

There were other shitty things in the game as well as the guy was (rather famously) self-important on top of his misogyny. At one point the DM mentions that there's a crack in the wall, and a friendly eighteen year old guy who'd joined my friends in the game said, "I smoke it!" and got a chuckle. The DM flips his fucking lid and begins yelling at the poor kid that it's an official RPGA event and how dare he bring that sort of disgusting thing to the table. My friends tried to defuse it by mocking the DM saying, "Yes, I won't have that fucking language around me," but it was clear that something weird was going on.

The game eventually ended when two of the players had enough of the DM's bizarre goblin pet character, a guide helping the players who was obviously meant to be screamingly funny with painful homophobic humour. After the latest attempt at lisping juvenile bum gags, they nodded to each other and declared surprise attacks on it. The DM couldn't really do anything about it and was at a loss for why anyone would do this, and the game fell apart as everyone took a turn taking out their frustrations on the goblin.

It's just that the way you wrote it sounded like it was an attack on males.

Nah, though I now realize the way I'd worded it wasn't very good

And yes, Dark Souls rules

Turtlicious said I've never seen someone "change their mind" or "change their position" in OT, I've only seen them move the goal posts, concede, or just write paragraph upon paragraph changing the issue as much as possible so that they won't be seen as wrong.

We constantly hit complex topics, sometimes that means moving to smaller/different topics to get the bigger picture.
I've done it with people here many times, hell we've had many topics made here that were originally sub-topics of another one.

Also, to address at least one case where people have changed their mind or position. I'd highlight one of the previous feminist topic's here where me and Jorick went on a rather long and lengthy debate about men's rights, women's rights and some of the smaller/specific issues that plays into it. For the most part we've found ourselves agreeing largely, simply changing somewhat on some of the issues. But then there was the Abortion topic... I took the stance of pro-life, Jorick was pro-choice and Jorick proceeded with argument after argument that utterly destroyed my case for Pro-Life. I admitted that it did and although I am not currently calling myself Pro-Choice that was the event that caused me to halt and re-look at my position on the issue.

Now granted, what Jorick did was in a sense softened/set-up from previous (and also good) pro-choice arguments I heard from an atheist group I'm in. But it was that specific debate, the one that happened right here in OT that was the trigger point for me to outright stop and re-look at my stance.

Turtlicious said If I had to guess, you're not fond of spam because no-one "has" to engage you on the same level, and higher effort tends to be mocked.

I'm not fond of it because it reminds me of High School. Exactly in the way Brovo highlighted it, by mocking intelligence and thought and praising mindless vouches for attention and popularity.
But no one "has" to engage me on the same level here either. Hell I more than admit I'm probably on the lower end of the scale of Intelligence, and ability to argue and debate compared to others on here.
And a society that mocks effort is probably a society that isn't going to get far in anything.

Brovo said I still don't understand how you got unbanned.

Everyone was when the new Guild started. I had even seen Mammoth, someone who was banned around the time I was first getting started on the Guild post on the site at least one or twice.
Not sure if he's around now though. But basically the Admins treated the new site as a clean start for everyone.

Jorick said Turt's nonsense and those responding to him are getting off topic though, so everyone should probably do the smart thing and not bother responding to any more of his shit stirring here in the thread.

Good call, I'll probably stop after this post if it continues to be a "OT sucks! You all suck!" sort of deal.

Turtlicious said
Anyways, on-topic.A friend of mine was in a Con game where the DM refused to actually acknowledge anything she said, or really that she was even at the table. My male friends who were with her were dumbstruck that they had to relay anything she said about in-game actions or speech to them first before the DM would do anything about it. She couldn't get her head around how someone could actually act like that, but he literally did not seem to accept she was part of the game except that her character seemed to be doing things. Everyone stuck around for the game to see how bad it could get, except one who texted everyone under the table that he was running for it before leaving "to take an important phone call."There were other shitty things in the game as well as the guy was (rather famously) self-important on top of his misogyny. At one point the DM mentions that there's a crack in the wall, and a friendly eighteen year old guy who'd joined my friends in the game said, "I smoke it!" and got a chuckle. The DM flips his fucking lid and begins yelling at the poor kid that it's an official RPGA event and how dare he bring that sort of disgusting thing to the table. My friends tried to defuse it by mocking the DM saying, "Yes, I won't have that fucking language around me," but it was clear that something weird was going on.The game eventually ended when two of the players had enough of the DM's bizarre goblin pet character, a guide helping the players who was obviously meant to be screamingly funny with painful homophobic humour. After the latest attempt at lisping juvenile bum gags, they nodded to each other and declared surprise attacks on it. The DM couldn't really do anything about it and was at a loss for why anyone would do this, and the game fell apart as everyone took a turn taking out their frustrations on the goblin.

If this story is true... God damn I keep getting baffled by how sexist people today still are. -.-

Maybe it's because it was a girl who basically introduced me and taught me D&D, but I can never understand the mentality of those who get intimidated by girls at the D&D table.

Off topic, but Spam has been often a place where reasonable and intelligent discussions can and often did occur. I always saw it as a place to socialize without having to worry about being crude or playing nice with people; you can actually call them out on stupid shit. Plus, no stigma about going off topic in the off topic section.

Although, looking at it now, I can defintely see where people are coming from by comparing it to high school and other such immature places. I mainly stick around, hoping it gets better and some of the old mainstays return, but I'm starting to think they have the right idea by bowing out of going there.

I suppose I need to accept that like people, communities change, and not always for the better.

Anyways, back on topic. Didn't think that needed its own thread.

Dervish said
Off topic, but Spam has been often a place where reasonable and intelligent discussions can and often did occur. I always saw it as a place to socialize without having to worry about being crude or playing nice with people; you can actually call them out on stupid shit. Plus, no stigma about going off topic in the off topic section.Although, looking at it now, I can defintely see where people are coming from by comparing it to high school and other such immature places. I mainly stick around, hoping it gets better and some of the old mainstays return, but I'm starting to think they have the right idea by bowing out of going there.I suppose I need to accept that like people, communities change, and not always for the better.Anyways, back on topic. Didn't think that needed its own thread.

It'd basically be a thread going "I don't like this! Let's complain!" any how. :P

As for Intelligent conversations. I've seen that claimed many times, each time I said "Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's test it and have one" and without fail the reaction was "Gosh! Why are you trying to be smart! Go to off topic for that! Get out of here, you're boring!" so I've stopped giving those claims credit. Though maybe this is just a case of the fact it was me, and spam had already put me in the Nerd/Geek cliche of their community, so seeing me as someone lower they were pre-disposed to be immature towards me, while with some who has a more popular status they might actually be a bit more mature/respectful with.

But if the community only treat's specific people with maturity and respect, and the requirement isn't based on Intelligence or good argument but rather how fun or cool they see you to be then it just simply is not a good environment to be having intelligent conversations in, cause you are using an unintelligent method to discriminate on viewpoints and opinions. Also, I've seen people call people out for being stupid, I've done it before, I've seen Jorick do it many times. Brovo's done it also. Dark Wind basically does the same thing, but care's too much about being respectful and civil all the time to actually truly/bluntly to do it, bless his soul. :P I've also seen it from others before whose names I either can't think of at the time or don't know cause I'd memorize them by their profile pic.

I am (painfully) aware that mileage may vary and experiences aren't rated by the ESRB and what have you, and I know how it can be sink or swim forbpeople. This is where the high school comparisons are apt; it was definitely a clique.

Although, I will say this, the people who are often the most popular there are the ones who proved they were intelligent and had some other factors going for them, like a certain brand of humour, impressive sarcasm, the ability to get along with most everyone, and so on. Mostly, it was an exercise of sticking it out until people got to know you without being an idiot or offensive. Once again, everyone has different experiences, and I don't dare presume to speak on your, or anyone else's, behalf on the matter.

But as for the intelligent discussion thing, I swear it has merit. You know I am capable of having a rational, mature discussion with people, so I wouldn't make stuff up. It's just one of those things that happened once a blue moon.

Anyways, you get the gist.

I also use past tense because I don't know WTF it is now.

I stuck it out for several years. :P
I had some people who liked me, but with the exception of a few of them like Grif they were all either people I also know through OT or in RP's (and most of them aren't even on the new Guild :(). But community as a whole? It never changed, actually that's a lie. It got worse, I first came in at the lower end of popularity but could still float around and survive (even if there were some who hated me, Sole, Hank etc.). But whenever anything outside of random shit happened it would turn around the majority would get annoyed. Now I'm never one to simply listen to the crowd and change myself to be accepted, I've been picked on so much as a kid I've learned to take pride in the fact you won't get along with everyone. So essentially, because I kept staying as myself the originally below average view of me became a hated view of me. I never actually did anything wrong so Admins never got involved (To this day the admins on this site are some of the only admins I've seen that I actually like), but the community outright hated me.

As for intelligent debate claim. It could be true, but it definitely is not a defining point of spam. And is not something nearly commonly (or unbias) enough for them to use as a legit argument when trying to compare spam to off topic.

Did you do that when I was banned? Because I was only banned for a couple f months and I don't remember you (Magnum) ever posting in spam. Except for that one time I was banned and you came into gloat and everyone laughed you out of it.

As far as the twitter post in the OP goes, sexism/elitism isn't the only thing idiotic about anyone assuming anyone hasn't played one of the most mainstream games of the 2000s.

I am going to give my opinion on this matter and you can take it however you like. I believe that one of the reason geek culture has this resentment towards women who identify themselves as geeks is because to them they feel like the opposite sex is only calling themselves geeks now because it is more accepted in today's world. As it is portrayed in pop culture a lot, many geeks were always chosen second when it came to romantic affection from girls who preferred to date the popular jocks. To some geek who are now seeing beautiful girls identifying themselves as geeks, they feel like they are not being legit, and resent them for it. This happens to many different groups of people who have a history of being outcasts or discriminated against. They resentful for how they were treated and sometimes take it out on those who they feel deserve it. Of course that is no excuse for sexism and they are wrong to discriminate against people like that, but the fact is human beings have a huge tendency to hate on those who they feel resentment for.

to answer the question of how to tell a real geek from a faker. For me as a comic book geek, I find it easy to tell whose a faker and who is a proper comic book lover. If a so called comic book geek says DC sucks except for Batman then they probably have never read any of the comics or have not read enough to know what they are talking about, they just watched the movies. Most proper comic geeks like all the comic book companies or at least give a proper or valid reason for liking one over the other. I can't really say anything for other forms of geekdom since I am mostly a comic book geek, but from what I can tell, knowledge and how much you watch, read or play determines if you're a real geek. I hope this helped answer your questions, and I would like to say to all women who call themselves geeks, do not let these jerks get you down because there are rude people everywhere and there always will be, especially on the internet.

Gamer Girl Syndrome
Gamer Guy Syndrome

Ran into these two videos, both entertainingly bring up some points on this whole topic.
I'm wondering what you people here think about the points they make?

For me, I see what they're saying. Also if we as a community just calmed down and just let gamer's be gamer's, without judgement by sex/gender a lot of the issues would go away. But the issue is still going to be present as long:

1) It remains male dominant
As long as it stays with way you will get girls faking it trying to get boys to like them in the same sense you see guys sometimes like about interest in women things to get girl attention. Now, the majority of guys go into 'girl' things purely because they enjoy it (same as Girls who go into 'guy' things like gaming), but the minority who exploit it for attention will still be there as long as a it remains a sex dominated culture.

2) There are still female representation issues in games
This plays hand in hand with point 1. Without fair/equal representation the field will naturally appeal to more men than women, and reject more women then men. We need to make it equally open, fair and un-judging to both sexes.

Turtlicious said
Did you do that when I was banned? Because I was only banned for a couple f months and I don't remember you (Magnum) ever posting in spam. Except for that one time I was banned and you came into gloat and everyone laughed you out of it.

I never gloated about you being banned or anything.

I think a decent amount of me testing it was when you were gone, but I didn't announce it was a test each time I was testing it. There were times I simply tried to start a conversation without saying what I was doing and spam would still shit all of it probably never realizing they were being given the chance to walk the talk.

Magic Magnum said There were times I simply tried to start a conversation without saying what I was doing and spam would still shit all of it probably never realizing they were being given the chance to walk the talk.

It doesn't work like that. lol.

Turtlicious said
It doesn't work like that. lol.

How else are they supposed to prove it if not by doing it?
If they want people to believe them when they say they can have intelligent conversations, then they should show that they are in fact capable.
Rather than say continuing to act childish and just expecting people to believe them.

Magic Magnum said
How else are they supposed to prove it if not by doing it?If they want people to believe them when they say they can have intelligent conversations, then they should show that they are in fact capable.Rather than say continuing to act childish and just expecting people to believe them.

It's cool if you don't get it, you can just say "Hey I don't get it."

Lets not pretend that there arent fake geeks, girls and guys.

Dynamo Frokane said
Lets not pretend that there arent fake geeks, girls and guys.

Everyone has something that they're passionate (or geeky) about, honestly. Whether it's video games or books or shoes and make-up. Now people who are like "omg I was on facebook for three hours straight last night I'm such a nerd lol" are annoying but don't judge someone if they call themselves a nerd but don't look the part. Most people who are labeled as "fake geeks" are the ones who are new to something and really want to learn about it, and it's terms like this that drive them away. Everyone expects them to be experts at everything right off the bat, and if they slip up, they're suddenly fake.

In terms of actual sexism in nerdery, I haven't come across any in my community. If anything, it kind of feels the opposite. I'm the only female in my computer engineering class and some profs will correct themselves because I am there. Like, "okay guys-no wait guys and girls". It's really awkward and I wish they wouldn't do it.

SushiKitten said
Everyone has something that they're passionate (or geeky) about, honestly. Whether it's video games or books or shoes and make-up. Now people who are like "omg I was on facebook for three hours straight last night I'm such a nerd lol" are annoying but don't judge someone if they call themselves a nerd but don't look the part. Most people who are labeled as "fake geeks" are the ones who are new to something and really want to learn about it, and it's terms like this that drive them away. Everyone expects them to be experts at everything right off the bat, and if they slip up, they're suddenly fake. In terms of actual sexism in nerdery, I haven't come across any in my community. If anything, it kind of feels the opposite. I'm the only female in my computer engineering class and some profs will correct themselves because I am there. Like, "okay guys-no wait guys and girls". It's really awkward and I wish they wouldn't do it.

Well in the case of annoying facebook statuses that's a given, there are plenty of non-nerd related posts that are equally if not more annoying, but in the case of taking pictures holding an xbox controller with a mario t-shirt on with those big dumb glasses, captioning 'Geek' is irritating, wether its a boy or a girl doing it.

I'm not saying they cant pretend to like games, but I still have every right to complain about it, as they have the right to complain about shit that I do.