"You're a Fake Geek!" and Sexism among Geeks/Nerds/Etc (us)

[Gwazi Magnum]

Turtlicious said
It's cool if you don't get it, you can just say "Hey I don't get it."

That only works if actual reason has been given as to how/why such community is intelligent.

So far none has been given, so asking "Why is this true?" rather than saying "This is true, I just don't get how" would be more accurate.

SushiKitten said
Everyone has something that they're passionate (or geeky) about, honestly. Whether it's video games or books or shoes and make-up. Now people who are like "omg I was on facebook for three hours straight last night I'm such a nerd lol" are annoying but don't judge someone if they call themselves a nerd but don't look the part. Most people who are labeled as "fake geeks" are the ones who are new to something and really want to learn about it, and it's terms like this that drive them away. Everyone expects them to be experts at everything right off the bat, and if they slip up, they're suddenly fake.

Agreed, we were all at that stage where we were new/first learning.

No matter what the field/interest is it shocks me how often people tend to forget this.

SushiKitten said In terms of actual sexism in nerdy, I haven't come across any in my community. If anything, it kind of feels the opposite. I'm the only female in my computer engineering class and some profs will correct themselves because I am there. Like, "okay guys-no wait guys and girls". It's really awkward and I wish they wouldn't do it.

XD

I'm in ECE (Early Childhood Education) and I've had the same mainly happen to me.
At my last placement for example everyone (Kids and Teachers alike) constantly reffered to me as Ms.Anthony instead of Mr.Anthony just by habit (Though honestly, I'd rather just be called Anthony :P).

The children I understand, I was the first male teacher they ever had so they simply never even heard of the term "Mr" before. But the teachers it seemed a bit odd some of the time. But they usually caught themselves so it wasn't a big deal for me. But that be because the placement I had before then the very first reaction the staff had to me was "OMG it's a boy!" and then the majority of the staff spent the semester being pretty vicious/unwelcoming. So when those two placements get compared, I may just be looking at the Ms thing and going "Eh, I've dealt with worse".

Dynamo Frokane said
Well in the case of annoying facebook statuses that's a given, there are plenty of non-nerd related posts that are equally if not more annoying, but in the case of taking pictures holding an xbox controller with a mario t-shirt on with those big dumb glasses, captioning 'Geek' is irritating, wether its a boy or a girl doing it. I'm not saying they cant pretend to like games, but I still have every right to complain about it, as they have the right to complain about shit that I do.

That stuff get's annoying no matter what the area is.
Like someone say constantly posing in sport jersey's while holding a ball, but probably never watches or plays sports.
If so it's just something like the super bowl cause they're friends also did it.

Geek/Nerd culture just has the unfortunate Hipster effect. Where since it's currently something that most people tease and ridicule (establishing as an uncool/unpopular thing) there will be those who go into it purely for the "Well I want to be different" sort of thing. Normally I find you can tell these Hipster/fakers apart from actual geeks/nerds though by seeing how those who claim their nerds/geeks act towards or treat those who are more geeky/nerdy than them (or at least more public/obvious about it). If they seem more accepting, cool or neutral on the matter, they're probably a geek themselves. If they respond to it with fear, hatred or viciousness they're probably people who just pretended to be like them for attentions sake, since now they're turning around and insulting the very thing they claimed to like.

[ishtar]

Well... I've read most of the posts in here... I said 'most' because some of the posts are honestly a little too long for me to read fully, so I kinda fast-read them. Anyway, I've read most of the posts in here, and I'd say 'sexism exist on both sides of the coin'.
Not going to debate what's already been said, but I'd like to share my own experience as a girl who play games for fun and most times for the story of it (if the game got a back story to it).

I like games. I like watching people playing games, even if most of the times I wasn't the one playing it. And for several games, while I do enjoy the gameplay and the challenges in it, sometimes I just want to know how the story progressed, I want to know what happened next and what the ending would be. I don't claim to be an expert gamer, in fact, I'm pretty suck at playing them (except for a select few).
Most times when I got stuck on the game (offline games) because I wasn't skilled enough, I resorted to cheats. And, yes, I know all the gamers out there will immediately pointed at me and yell "CHEATER!! REAL GAMER WILL NEVER CHEAT!!" or something like that. Again, I already stated, that sometimes I just want to know how the story progressed, which with my gaming skill is going to take forever, if ever, to get.

I did beat some of those games without cheats later on when I got a lil more skilled though. x3 I want to play games for the fun, not to add to my stress level. lol

Anyway! The experience I want to share is the one when I was playing one of those MMORPG years ago. I think I was playing Ragnarok Online, was still a naive noob back then and didn't realize the stereotypes that comes in the online gaming regarding gender. I made a female character, a swordswoman if I remember correctly, and started to play my way through the Midgard world. I found several people seemed to rather eagerly offered their help or gifted me with items.
I am not someone who like to ask for items or gold, in fact I hated it. At most I usually only asked for directions or tips, I never once asked for items nor game money, so the whole thing of people offering me gifts in the game was quite awkward for me.

Then, one day, one of the male char I chatted with in the game asked me this question: "Hey, are you a real girl IRL?"
Being the naive noob I was, I replied: "Yes, why?"
Him: "Hmm... Reaaally? You sure you're not some transvestite who played as girl in here?"
By this time I was having a 'wtf' moment, and I told him. "Why would I pose as a girl?"
And he replied: "Well, to get people to shower you with gifts , of course!"

That's when the penny dropped for me.
I won't narrate the rest of the convo, but it was basically I told him that yes, I'm sure I'm a girl. He didn't believe me and wanted me to show him 'proof', at which time I point blank told him No, and basically said 'Whatever' when he tried to bait me again.

Yeah.. wasn't a pleasant experience, and it left a rather nasty impression. But fortunately, I managed to get past all that, eventually. I don't think that all the guys in the online games are all like that, though can't really deny that this kind of stigma/sexism/whatever you want to call it, does exist.
I came back to play the game again and resolved to simply having fun. I stick to my principal of achieving something on my own, or at least made sure that I pull my own weight to achieve what I wanted. And whenever someone tried to ask me about me being girl IRL, I simply turned it back on them.

GameFriend: "Hey, are you a real girl IRL? Or is this just your female char in game?"
Me: "That depends. If I told you that I am, would you believe me?"
GameFriend: "Well... Not really."
Me: "Then what's the point of me trying to convince you? You're not going to believe me anyway."

or

GameFriend: "Hey, are you a real girl IRL? Or is this just your female char in game?"
Me: "I'm a girl IRL."
GameFriend: "Really? I don't believe you."
Me: "That's your problem, not mine."

Sooo, yeah, that worked quite well for me. Heh. x3

[Turtlicious]

Well... I've read most of the posts in here... I said 'most' because some of the posts are honestly a little too long for me to read fully, so I kinda fast-read them. Anyway, I've read most of the posts in here, and I'd say 'sexism exist on both sides of the coin'.

That's because OT never learned how to debate properly.

That only works if actual reason has been given as to how/why such community is intelligent.

So far none has been given, so asking "Why is this true?" rather than saying "This is true, I just don't get how" would be more accurate.

You don't understand satire, nor irony. You can't see the bigger picture, I can't explain the forest to you because you're bitching at the trees.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Turtlicious said You don't understand satire, nor irony. You can't see the bigger picture, I can't explain the forest to you because you're bitching at the trees.

But a forest needs tree's to be a forest.
And atm the forest isn't showing any tree's, so if it lacks tree's it can't possibly be a forest.

I stick to my stance of "You need to prove something before you expect people to believe it".
You're getting no where using religious logic such as "Just take my word for it, stop disagreeing with me".
If I catch you doing that again then I'm just going to stop answering and simply let you preach in your corner.

[Turtlicious]

Magic Magnum said
But a forest needs tree's to be a forest. And atm the forest isn't showing any tree's, so if it lacks tree's it can't possibly be a forest.I stick to my stance of "You need to prove something before you expect people to believe it".You're getting no where using religious logic such as "Just take my word for it, stop disagreeing with me".If I catch you doing that again then I'm just going to stop answering and simply let you preach in your corner.

No I was trying to kindly say, "You're not the best at reading social situations, so you're probably no going to understand this."

Like I literally think you're incapable of understanding that spammers aren't posting earnestly in spam, and the intelligence comes from the jokes that shine in the subtext. Especially since we've gone a page back and forth and you're already stamping your feet and going, "Well I just won't talk to you because I don't understand.'

E: And Yes, I mean Literally as in "The Forum is Literally Grey."

E2: Spam is like the Colbert show, and you're the one guy on Facebook who talks about how Stephen is the last true American.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Turtlicious said
No I was trying to kindly say, "You're not the best at reading social situations, so you're probably no going to understand this."Like I literally think you're incapable of understanding that spammers aren't posting earnestly in spam, and the intelligence comes from the jokes that shine in the subtext. Especially since we've gone a page back and forth and you're already stamping your feet and going, "Well I just won't talk to you because I don't understand.'E: And Yes, I mean Literally as in "The Forum is Literally Grey."E2: Spam is like the Colbert show, and you're the one guy on Facebook who talks about how Stephen is the last true American.

I will grant you that I'm not always the best at reading normal people. Hell to this day I regard the normal person's behavior and thinking patterns as foreign.
This probably get's worse when online you're left only to words to interpret one's meaning. Things such as facial expression and tone of voice being absent.

But I know part of what's needed to have a civil, mature and intelligent conversation. Those things include being able to take it seriously and focus on the topic rather than trolling the individual.
Spam from what they've chosen to show me has never done those, so I have no reason to think they are capable of such a thing. If they want me to think otherwise, they're best off showing it. Cause so far it's been a pattern of them claiming they can, but then refusing to actually show it. And honestly if an individual or a community refuses to show a quality about them, they have no one to blame but themselves for people thinking that they lack said quality.

[Turtlicious]

Magic Magnum said
I will grant you that I'm not always the best at reading normal people. Hell to this day I regard the normal person's behavior and thinking patterns as foreign.This probably get's worse when online you're left only to words to interpret one's meaning. Things such as facial expression and tone of voice being absent.But I know part of what's needed to have a civil, mature and intelligent conversation. Those things include being able to take it seriously and focus on the topic rather than trolling the individual. Spam from what they've chosen to show me has never done those, so I have no reason to think they are capable of such a thing. If they want me to think otherwise, they're best off showing it. Cause so far it's been a pattern of them claiming they can, but then refusing to actually show it. And honestly if an individual or a community refuses to show a quality about them, they have no one to blame but themselves for people thinking that they lack said quality.

You realize a majority of the people who post in Off-Topic also post in spam?

And like I said before, they're not going to because it's a performance, just like the magician doesn't show you there are two ladies in the box, Spam isn't going to break Kayfabe because you don't understand it.

[Seravee]

I went into GameStop and asked for help finding a game. I was directed to where the Sims games were located.
Not once. Twice.

[Turtlicious]

Seravee said
I went into GameStop and asked for help finding a game. I was directed to where the Sims games were located.Not once. .

This reminds me of something else I hate.

Why do people use their media interests as a subsitute for a personality? People who say "I'm a gamer, I'm a geek hoi doi doi" are the WOOORSSSTTTT. You've basically boiled yourself down to the media you consume and have erased any chance of me taking you seriously, and the worst part is that's how most of the world sees idiots like that. If I went into a job interview and said I'm a gamer, the Manager would probably just roll his eyes because that means jack-shit on a serious level.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Turtlicious said
You realize a majority of the people who post in Off-Topic also post in spam?And like I said before, they're not going to because it's a performance, just like the magician doesn't show you there are two ladies in the box, Spam isn't going to break Kayfabe because you don't understand it.

Most of OT people are in spam.
But most of spam are not in OT.

We even have people from OT here who were part of spam admit it's pretty bad and they stop or reduce going there as a result.
As for the magician example, you're implying the magician is already showing the trick. In which case you consider the trolling, derail of topics, and cliche making to be their Intelligence.
If that's what spam's Intelligent coversations are... then they have none.

There is a huge difference between having an actual argument and points behind it, and simply trying to troll people to assert some sort of "Dominant Alpha Spam Male" position without actually ever addressing or giving thought to a certain topic. So if they're replies of "You're stupid" or "Words! Words are boring! Look how cool I am cause I posted this picture!" is what counts as Intelligent debates that can't be recognized. Then that's basically the same as saying "That McDonald's cashier's job is just as important, thought provoking and respectable that a scientists work in evolution. You just can't recognize it!".

[ishtar]

Seravee said
I went into GameStop and asked for help finding a game. I was directed to where the Sims games were located.Not once. .

Turtlicious said
This reminds me of something else I hate.Why do people use their media interests as a subsitute for a personality? People who say "I'm a gamer, I'm a geek hoi doi doi" are the WOOORSSSTTTT. You've basically boiled yourself down to the media you consume and have erased any chance of me taking you seriously, and the worst part is that's how most of the world sees idiots like that. If I went into a job interview and said I'm a gamer, the Manager would probably just roll his eyes because that means jack-shit on a serious level.

Err.... maybe it's just me... but how did Seravee's post linked to 'People use their media interests as a subsitute for a personality' ? I mean, she was sharing her experience like I did, and suddenly you're talking about .. personality substitute?

[Turtlicious]

Magic Magnum said
Most of OT people are in spam.But most of spam are not in OT.We even have people from OT here who were part of spam admit it's pretty bad and they stop or reduce going there as a result.As for the magician example, you're implying the magician is already showing the trick. In which case you consider the trolling, derail of topics, and cliche making to be their Intelligence.If that's what spam's Intelligent coversations are... then they have none.There is a huge difference between having an actual argument and points behind it, and simply trying to troll people to assert some sort of "Dominant Alpha Spam Male" position without actually ever addressing or giving thought to a certain topic. So if they're replies of "You're stupid" or "Words! Words are boring! Look how cool I am cause I posted this picture!" is what counts as Intelligent debates that can't be recognized. Then that's basically the same as saying "That McDonald's cashier's job is just as important, thought provoking and respectable that a scientists work in evolution. You just can't recognize it!".

You are completely ignoring what I'm saying, you're moving the goal posts, your point is tangentially related to the subject we were discussing, and you're taking a shit on McDonald's employees, who most are just trying to survive.

Your either retarded or a very good troll, either way I'm done with you. Learn how to debate your point proper, then try again.

Without the classist bullshit as well.

e: I was never arguing spam is a place for debates, I just think it's dumb to say you can't have a discussion that's intelligent in spam, when you have to be pretty intelligent to find a way to fit in. Which is why the best posters are generally pretty smart, erego they must be having discussion that's intelligent, even if it doesn't fit your weird arbitrary standards.

Please get over being laughed out of spam, you can say their nothing but trolls, but that's because you don't know how to fit in with them lmao.

[Turtlicious]

ishtar said
Err.... maybe it's just me... but how did Seravee's post linked to 'People use their media interests as a subsitute for a personality' ? I mean, she was sharing her experience like I did, and suddenly you're talking about .. personality substitute?

Girls can't be true gamers because gamer is more then just like video games > It's a way of life (or some bullshit.)

The broken logic that makes people act the way they do towards Seravee stems from that root of personality subsitution. They're not the only ones who do it though. Bronies, Whovians, Brown Coats, hell even gang members, found a piece of media they'd rather use as a personality instead of developing their own.

[ishtar]

Turtlicious said
Girls can't be true gamers because gamer is more then just like video games > It's a way of life (or some bullshit.)The broken logic that makes people act the way they do towards Seravee stems from that root of personality subsitution. They're not the only ones who do it though. Bronies, Whovians, Brown Coats, hell even gang members, found a piece of media they'd rather use as a personality instead of developing their own.

Ah, OK. I got what you're saying now. ^^ Thanks.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Turtlicious said
You are completely ignoring what I'm saying, you're moving the goal posts, your point is tangentially related to the subject we were discussing, and you're taking a shit on McDonald's employees, who most are just trying to survive.Your either retarded or a very good troll, either way I'm done with you. Learn how to debate your point proper, then try again.Without the classist bullshit as well.e: I was never arguing spam is a place for debates, I just think it's dumb to say you can't have a discussion that's intelligent in spam, when you have to be pretty intelligent to find a way to fit in. Which is why the best posters are generally pretty smart, erego they must be having discussion that's intelligent, even if it doesn't fit your weird arbitrary standards.Please get over being laughed out of spam, you can say their nothing but trolls, but that's because you don't know how to fit in with them lmao.

Goal posts never changed :P
You're trying to prove that spam does (or at least can) have Intelligent conversations.
I'm showing how they've never shown any reason for people to believe that.

I'll admit my wording/deliever with the McDonalds point was off/out of line.
The point with McDonalds was highlighting the general environment/what it takes to work.
McDonald's the requirements are pretty low, cook fries, take an order. Purpose/end result being people get food.

It would be inaccurate to say that such an environment was one that's good for something like science or long discussion.
It's possible they could, but it's not an environment set up to do so.

While positions such as scientist require a lot of effort, dedication, education, discipline etc to pull off.
And if you do it well the end result is the benefit/advancement of humankind.

If McDonald's want to claim they're at that level, they're free to. But they need to prove it.
And them simply saying "You need to look at us more" or "Those scientist are just mad cause they wouldn't get along with us" are not good arguments.
Not meaning to claim OT = Scientists though, no where close. But it is a community that has easily proved it's merits for Intellectual conversation and addressing the argument, not the individual.
While spam, has established itself as a community that addresses the individual, not the argument. And if they do address the argument it's usually "TLDR, I don't like reading".

And that last bit follows logic same as "Stop saying High School mentality/cliches are silly. You're just mad at not being on top".
Spam runs on a broken and vicious system, we've even had people here who did come out on top of there system admit this.
You don't need to be popular/accepted by a system before being able to say if it works and/or makes sense.

To be fair, it does work if you're looking for a High School boot camp sort of thing.
Or you happen to enjoy constantly playing social mind-games to gain popularity points.
But it does not work at all as a place for people to be accepted/looked on by merit, skills and abilities (well, if those skills and abilities are anywhere other than being socially charming that is).

[Turtlicious]

Right, except you've set up an arbitrary standard of what "intelligent conversation" is, which is silly, in my mind intelligence comes from brevity. Look at your post, how many things could have been cut out and still gotten your point across? You've almost buried your point behind this dumb McDonald's thing.

Here, I'm going to do you a favor, from someone who has been on a debate team / judged debates. (Because when you say "Intelligent Conversation," what you're actually describing is debates or white noise agreements.)

Magic Magnum said Goal posts never changed :P
You're trying to prove that spam does (or at least can) have Intelligent conversations.
I'm showing how they've never shown any reason for people to believe that.

I'll admit my wording/deliever with the McDonalds point was off/out of line.
The point with McDonalds was highlighting the general environment/what it takes to work.
McDonald's the requirements are pretty low, cook fries, take an order. Purpose/end result being people get food.

This is good, it gets your point across, and it does it succinctly.

Magic Magnum said It would be inaccurate to say that such an environment was one that's good for something like science or long discussion.
It's possible they could, but it's not an environment set up to do so.

While positions such as scientist require a lot of effort, dedication, education, discipline etc to pull off.
And if you do it well the end result is the benefit/advancement of humankind.

If McDonald's want to claim they're at that level, they're free to. But they need to prove it.
And them simply saying "You need to look at us more" or "Those scientist are just mad cause they wouldn't get along with us" are not good arguments.

This whole part? Repetition. Cut it

Magic Magnum said Not meaning to claim OT = Scientists though, no where close. But it is a community that has easily proved it's merits for Intellectual conversation and addressing the argument, not the individual.

This is pointedly not true, and I've repeatedly provided evidence that it isn't.

Magic Magnum said While spam, has established itself as a community that addresses the individual, not the argument. And if they do address the argument it's usually "TLDR, I don't like reading".

This is a completely valid criticism, and only shit writers would ignore the fact that writing a thousand words when a hundred would do is just bad writing. Git gud.

Magic Magnum said And that last bit follows logic same as "Stop saying High School mentality/cliches are silly. You're just mad at not being on top".
Spam runs on a broken and vicious system, we've even had people here who did come out on top of there system admit this.
You don't need to be popular/accepted by a system before being able to say if it works and/or makes sense.

To be fair, it does work if you're looking for a High School boot camp sort of thing.
Or you happen to enjoy constantly playing social mind-games to gain popularity points.
But it does not work at all as a place for people to be accepted/looked on by merit, skills and abilities (well, if those skills and abilities are anywhere other than being socially charming that is).

Your point is flaccid, and doesn't work when the people who are most popular are those who can best fit together a sentence in a succinct way. You've conflated being long winded and verbose with intelligence. This simply isn't true. You would be marked down for a statement like this especially when it's not backed up by evidence. You're arguing from a bad position because you can't prove a negative, so you're already at a disadvantage, every appeal to emotion over logic is just another point against you.

It doesn't matter how a particular sub-forum makes you "feel" only the facts, the fact is that a majority of the best off-topic people post in spam, but many of the best spammers feel off-topic is beneath them. Stop projecting your highschool insecurities onto a sub-forum.

Not to mention the whole "Let's try to get X banned" that happens behind the scenes in off-topic, but that's besides to point, so I won't talk about that.

(Because it's not related to the argument, which is whether or not spam conversation is intelligent.)

[Turtlicious]

So Gwazi, here is what your post should have looked like!

[My] goal posts never changed :P You're trying to prove that spam does (or at least can) have Intelligent conversations. I'm showing how they've never shown any reason for people to believe that. I'll admit my wording/deliever with the McDonalds point was off/out of line. The point with McDonalds was highlighting the general environment/what it takes to work. McDonald's the requirements are pretty low, cook fries, take an order. Purpose/end result being people get food.

To be fair, it does work if you're looking for a High School boot camp sort of thing. Or you happen to enjoy constantly playing social mind-games to gain popularity points.. But it does not work at all as a place for people to be accepted/looked on by merit, skills and abilities (well, if those skills and abilities are anywhere other than being socially charming that is).

/gwazi

This is what your posts should look like when you're trying to have an intelligent discussion, I took out all the crap that was just repetitive or pointless.

[Gwazi Magnum]

You cut out the comparison, which is part of the argument.

When you trying to fully dissect and understand issues it pays off to take the time/effort to go into detail rather than try to be nice and quick because people find it easier when it's short and sweet. If you were trying to appeal to an uneducated and/or short attention spanned audience your method would be right. Cause you need the point quick enough to fit in while they're listening. But if you're talking with others who do not shy away from longer posts/lectures. Those who know a lot about the topic and are willing to take the long haul of dissecting it (as professionals do/should, look at the whole picture) it's better to go longer/detailed to get a better idea of the topic.

I'm not arguing longer = smarter though, and that's not my argument against spam. But longer does help a better/deeper conversation to happen that is harder to have with shorter posts. Spam's issue is like said in the previous post, they don't care for the argument being put forward and will simply troll or support the person making the argument based on if they like the person or not.

And I don't see any emotional arguments on my end, I'm simply highlighting a fact/flaw that is hugely connected with intelligent conversations ability to happen.
Which is you need to be addressing the argument, not the individual. Otherwise you're just being selective in who can argue/debate and that ultimately leads to confirmation bias, only allowing those opinions that agree with your own.

Also have you considered there's another reason people post in spam more?
A normal post in spam has almost no requirements, it requires little effort, not any thinking for the majority of them and can be as random and silly as you want.
A normal post in OT (If you want it treated seriously) needs some point behind it, some thought out argument, and willingness to deal with counter points.

Also on top of that more people tend to enjoy simple games/fun over debates may it be over knowledge of the topic, time it takes or simply not liking to be at disagreement with others.
Spam's nature both appeals to a bigger amount of people and has a lower entry barrier. That is why you find spam more popular and many OT people there, not because spam is inherently better.
Also if the term "High School mentality" makes you uncomfortable then fine, but it's me taking any sort of insecurity and throwing it at spam. It is basic observation noting how the two work very similar, and has also been something others here have admitted to, but I've seen none of them be accused of projecting insecurities.

[Turtlicious]

You just argued that longer = smarter in the paragraph before you said "I'm not arguing longer = smarter."

Gwazi said A normal post in OT (If you want it treated seriously) needs some point behind it, some thought out argument, and willingness to deal with counter points.

Not true, like at all.

e: You said also like 3 or 4 times, that's just lazy writing, at this point it's becoming difficult to read what you write, I understand you feel like putting more down on paper means you're going more in depth on the subject, but there is just no way in hell I'm going to subject myself to that.

[Tick]

What does Spam have to do with Fake Geeks?