Call To Action: Marginalized Groups Must Be Recognized In The Rules

[FrankenDaughter]

An open discussion on our Discord is presently being held. For years, RPG's staff and members have had a difficult time enforcing the rules regarding respect for individuals when attacks against such people could be veiled as attacks on specific groups. The examples over the years of this kind of bigotry are myriad. I have taken it upon myself to give voice to our concerns--ones that I think center around the future accountability we deserve to see from site staff as well as an improvement in our community's ability to care for and reassure one another.

Because of the open nature of the discussion, I am asking marginalized peoples throughout the site to come and offer their support for this endeavor. Staff should be made to witness the difficulties that this has caused for POC, queerfolk, disabled persons, and marginalized peoples the world over. RPG is an international community. It should be held to intersectional standards of accountability for the safety of its members. Please come join the discussion.

(Remember you need to be signed in through the Discord link at the top of the bar in order to view our discord server.

The channel in question and the beginning of the discussion:
discordapp.com/channels/3139427885364…

A more coherent restating of the case for changing the language of our rules to support marginalized groups, and a TL;DR for those not willing or able to sift through the first day's talks:
discordapp.com/channels/3139427885364…

I would also encourage anyone who would like to post here to use this as another avenue of discussion. I have no idea how many people don't use our Discord server, but I assume that number is at least a little higher than those that do.

[Rogue Sloth]

Legitimate question: What attacks have been going on toward marginalized groups on this site? Maybe my social circles here just haven't overlapped with those that have seen it, but I've never come across anyone who's here to terrorize or belittle someone from the groups mentioned above. I've also got some concerns about policing speech on the Guild unless this issue extends beyond one or two jackasses who could be dealt with by alerting the mods about their behavior. Adding rules doesn't stop people from being bigots, after all, and there will probably always be a few skulking around.

Second question: If this issue is prevalent enough to warrant action, what solutions are being suggested to handle it? I'm interested in hearing the specifics.

[Ammokkx]

Y'know I was about to quote

• Respect all members. Be pleasant to each other and treat people how you would like to be treated. Remember that respect comes in all forms and should be applied in everything that you do. When disagreements arise in discussion be sure to address them in good faith, ensuring that you avoid escalating them into any unnecessary conflict.

as being an anti-harassment rule but, as it turns out, this one is worded super lax. Still, I think the spirit of a rule called "respect all members" naturally umbrellas into "also respect the members of a more marginalized identity", don't you?

Otherwise I mostly agree with Dagger here; if there's harassment, I haven't seen it. If it's private enough, then I'm sure the members in question should be reported and dealt with accordingly. The mods on this site are pretty open folk; I really doubt it's a systemic problem. I'd also really like not to be stalked on this site; people can report me if my conduct is out of line (though most of my warnings come from the status bar, so I'm basically painting a target on myself, really)

I'm not ruling out the possibility of there being nasties on this site, but I really doubt they're ubiquitous enough to be much of a "root cause" problem.

[Nytem4re]

Legitimate question: What attacks have been going on toward marginalized groups on this site? Maybe my social circles here just haven't overlapped with those that have seen it, but I've never come across anyone who's here to terrorize or belittle someone from the groups mentioned above. I've also got some concerns about policing speech on the Guild unless this issue extends beyond one or two jackasses who could be dealt with by alerting the mods about their behavior. Adding rules doesn't stop people from being bigots, after all, and there will probably always be a few skulking around.

Second question: If this issue is prevalent enough to warrant action, what solutions are being suggested to handle it? I'm interested in hearing the specifics.

@Dagger

Y'know I was about to quote

• Respect all members. Be pleasant to each other and treat people how you would like to be treated. Remember that respect comes in all forms and should be applied in everything that you do. When disagreements arise in discussion be sure to address them in good faith, ensuring that you avoid escalating them into any unnecessary conflict.

as being an anti-harassment rule but, as it turns out, this one is worded super lax. Still, I think the spirit of a rule called "respect all members" naturally umbrellas into "also respect the members of a more marginalized identity", don't you?

Otherwise I mostly agree with Dagger here; if there's harassment, I haven't seen it. If it's private enough, then I'm sure the members in question should be reported and dealt with accordingly. The mods on this site are pretty open folk; I really doubt it's a systemic problem. I'd also really like not to be stalked on this site; people can report me if my conduct is out of line (though most of my warnings come from the status bar, so I'm basically painting a target on myself, really)

I'm not ruling out the possibility of there being nasties on this site, but I really doubt they're ubiquitous enough to be much of a "root cause" problem.

@Ammokkx

I don't see why adding it in the rules should be a contentious topic. I think it's really just the bare minimum they could do in order to make those groups feel safer. The other common argument I've seen is that "bad people will be bad", but at that point why does anyone have any laws passed in the real life? The constitution also says there are certain unalienable rights, but there was still the civil rights act among others that needed to be passed down the line, despite the constitution saying "all men are created equal". Sometimes things have to be outright stated, even if we are to assume common sense is common.

Saying that you have not seen any harassment towards marginalized groups is great, but I could easily say that I have seen people share some extremely bigoted views towards race and LGBT people on my time here, so I don't think that's also a good point to put across. Perhaps sometimes not outright harassment, but it leads to an situation where some people don't feel safe participating when the environment isn't always welcoming.

I believe putting it in words makes sure there is no ambiguity in the guild's views on bigotry, and is a step forward in ensuring that better/more accountable moderation is put in place. The action taken to help marginalized groups feel safer can't just be the words added to the rules sure, because in the end those are just words. People have to enforce them, but having it in writing has little downside other than a more wordy rules section. Of course more needs to be done, but the guild should start taking the steps to do so.

[FrankenDaughter]

Legitimate question: What attacks have been going on toward marginalized groups on this site? Maybe my social circles here just haven't overlapped with those that have seen it, but I've never come across anyone who's here to terrorize or belittle someone from the groups mentioned above. I've also got some concerns about policing speech on the Guild unless this issue extends beyond one or two jackasses who could be dealt with by alerting the mods about their behavior. Adding rules doesn't stop people from being bigots, after all, and there will probably always be a few skulking around.

@Dagger

As the discussion on the Discord server has become quite in-depth and involved recounting some of the history you're asking about, I'm loath to retread that history here when I am actively managing participation at present. If someone else wants to, I welcome them to do so.

Second question: If this issue is prevalent enough to warrant action, what solutions are being suggested to handle it? I'm interested in hearing the specifics.
[/quote]
The immediate proposal is exactly what it says on the tin. Support for marginalized groups should be included in the rules. It affords both community members as well as staff accountability for themselves and one another.

)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))_

Y'know I was about to quote

• Respect all members. Be pleasant to each other and treat people how you would like to be treated. Remember that respect comes in all forms and should be applied in everything that you do. When disagreements arise in discussion be sure to address them in good faith, ensuring that you avoid escalating them into any unnecessary conflict.

as being an anti-harassment rule but, as it turns out, this one is worded super lax. Still, I think the spirit of a rule called "respect all members" naturally umbrellas into "also respect the members of a more marginalized identity", don't you?

@Ammokkx

No, because the spirit of that rule's laxity does nothing to expose/speak to implicit bias. On the one hand, members are expected to make the same decisions staffers have to with vague rules on matters they may have little to no understanding of. This occurs every time they might speak out in a channel and every time they feel inclined to PM a staffer. On the other hand, staffers' implicit biases are fit to come on display whenever they decide to take a proactive role in enforcing the rules. This is the precident by which such abuses of power have been carried out, both by members and staffers.

Otherwise I mostly agree with Dagger here; if there's harassment, I haven't seen it. If it's private enough, then I'm sure the members in question should be reported and dealt with accordingly. The mods on this site are pretty open folk; I really doubt it's a systemic problem. I'd also really like not to be stalked on this site; people can report me if my conduct is out of line (though most of my warnings come from the status bar, so I'm basically painting a target on myself, really)

I'm not ruling out the possibility of there being nasties on this site, but I really doubt they're ubiquitous enough to be much of a "root cause" problem.

@Ammokkx

I'm inclined to believe that the main site is, at present, much less likely to be seething with subtle bigotry than it used to be. But I have not been an active member for some time outside of the Discord. I am still a writer, but I am in between my days of writing for roleplay. What I am not is an absentee. I have seen enough history on guild ti know that it has not always been so tame as it is now.

I am not under the impression that the calling out of individual abusers or bigots is necessary at present--I will state explicitly now that I have no interest in this. But setting more explicit standards by which we can hold one another accountable to will make it less likely we will need to do so in the future.

[Ammokkx]

I don't see why adding it in the rules should be a contentious topic.

@Nytem4re

I'm not contesting the suggestion. I'm contesting the motive. If you say "there's harassment and mods aren't acting on it" I'm willing to accept that, but not without proof. Otherwise it comes off as well, if I maybe a bit crude, drama baiting.

The other common argument I've seen is that "bad people will be bad", but at that point why does anyone have any laws passed in the real life? The constitution also says there are certain unalienable rights, but there was still the civil rights act among others that needed to be passed down the line, despite the constitution saying "all men are created equal". Sometimes things have to be outright stated, even if we are to assume common sense is common.

@Nytem4re

But bad people are going to be bad, and are going to be punished for being bad. Same here. Report the guys harassing and the mods will deal with it- unless you claim they won't, in which case, citation needed.

Saying that you have not seen any harassment towards marginalized groups is great, but I could easily say that I have seen people share some extremely bigoted views towards race and LGBT people on my time here, so I don't think that's also a good point to put across.

@Nytem4re

You could say that, and I'd like you to prove it.

If I haven't seen it, I can't give you any proof either because it doesn't exist for me. If you've seen it, then you can prove it too.

Then, once you have your motivation, we can discuss about whether or not the problem is widespread enough to be a problem. If it's people going out of their way to harass you over private DMs in discord then, well, yeah, you should probably screenshot that and forward it over to the mods so they can tell them cut it out or eat a ban.

Am I advocating for narcing? yes, yes I am. If you don't report a theft to the police, the police cannot get the chance to act on it.

And if you have reported it and they didn't act on it, then you should probably mention that incident.

I believe putting it in words makes sure there is no ambiguity in the guild's views on bigotry, and is a step forward in ensuring that better/more accountable moderation is put in place. The action taken to help marginalized groups feel safer can't just be the words added to the rules sure, because in the end those are just words. People have to enforce them, but having it in writing has little downside other than a more wordy rules section. Of course more needs to be done, but the guild should start taking the steps to do so.

@Nytem4re

Only if there is actually a problem in the first place. Sure, add it to the rules, but if it's the moderators being unwilling to enforce, then the problem isn't the rules, but the mods.

TLDR; citations or bust

EDIT: and, quite frankly, I already tire of this topic so I'm gonna head on out now. I really don't care enough if it's added or not either way.

[Nytem4re]

You could say that, and I'd like you to prove it.

If I haven't seen it, I can't give you any proof either because it doesn't exist for me. If you've seen it, then you can prove it too.

Then, once you have your motivation, we can discuss about whether or not the problem is widespread enough to be a problem. If it's people going out of their way to harass you over private DMs in discord then, well, yeah, you should probably screenshot that and forward it over to the mods so they can tell them cut it out or eat a ban.

Am I advocating for narcing? yes, yes I am. If you don't report a theft to the police, the police cannot get the chance to act on it.

And if you have reported it and they didn't act on it, then you should probably mention that incident.

@Ammokkx

I don't see a point in sending you examples when you don't seem open to having your mind changed. And you could prove that you haven't seen any sort of bigotry on the guild by sending me your entire post history, the threads you've been on, and your DMs. But that would be an exercise in pointless futility no? Nor would I want to browse over hundreds of posts to see if you were really telling the truth.

The rest I don't even really see a point to addressing because I would just point back to my previous arguments.

But have a nice day.

[Rogue Sloth]

@Nytem4re No one here is arguing that nothing should be done. All @Ammokkx and I are saying is that we haven't personally experienced this problem and would like to know more about it before pitching support for a change to rules and/or the way the mods have handled it historically. For example, what constitutes bigotry? What counts as a post that warrants punishment from moderators? I'm all for making marginalized groups feel safer if they are experiencing harassment here (honestly, if it's a big problem that the mods are *actively* ignoring, then I'm all for rallying to fix it). I just want specifics on what's been going on and how a solution would be done because other sites have overreacted to issues like these in the past and overcorrected in a way that punishes people who aren't even part of the problem. I'd hate to see that happen on the Guild.

Also, turning our questions around on us as if we're your enemies doesn't help the case. Whenever anyone wants to enact change, they're the ones with the burden of proof as to why the change should be made. Our asking for that proof isn't unreasonable in the slightest, and it isn't an attack on the original proposal. We just want more information. That's all. I don't know about Ammokkx, but I don't have a discord account, so I can't participate there or look at the conversations that have been happening.

Ultimately my question is what change would be made to the rules and how would it be at all different from a harassed user telling a mod about the problem, so the mod can step in and address the person who's attacking marginalized people? I'd appreciate more details than just someone repeating the same thing over again, please and thanks.

[Yankee]

I'm just chiming in as a queer person. There are a couple specific examples provided in the Discord, though without naming names. If you haven't been following the Discord discussion, don't have a Discord or decided not to read the links Franken provided, you probably will miss them.

I'm not speaking on Franken's behalf, but as I understand it the problem with this current rule mentioned (that being the "Respect all members" rule) is that it focuses on targeted harassment of individuals, and does not explicitly cover attacks on a group or identity. The change Franken suggests would make it clear that bigotry in any form isn't allowed on the site. It may seem like common sense, but I think most of you might agree sometimes common sense is a lot to ask of a person.

In my personal experience, I have seen some jokes and comments in very poor taste on the Guild's status bar and in the Discord. Transphobic, homophobic, and misogynistic comments. To the community's credit they are few and far between. The forum itself is much better about it than the Discord in that regard as well. Anytime I have alerted a mod they have taken care of it. So you may think why change the rule if the mods handle it? It's because bigots don't see explicit condemnation of their bigotry and they think it's allowed... because the rule is about targeted harassment. And some people won't speak up or report it, because others will say that their bigotry is just their own opinion and they are entitled to it. That's why some of the people on the site belonging to marginalized groups don't feel safe or comfortable, because the Guild has such a strong stance on giving everyone a fair chance and not catering to one group or the other, that they see bigotry being hand waved.

I don't believe the mod team is intentionally enabling bigots. I want to point out that the relatively lax moderation style of the Guild is one of the reasons I really like it. I generally think the mods do a good job too, though I haven't been a member for nearly as long as some of you. However it doesn't change the fact that some members become extremely uncomfortable and disheartened when they see bigotry being posted and ignored. A rules change that specifically points out that things like that won't be tolerated might mitigate some of it, but the most important thing is that they will feel the mod team has their back. Even if they are busy, offline, or genuinely miss something, someone can report and know that it will be taken care of because the mod team doesn't support bigotry... as stated in the rules.

I'm lucky that I haven't encountered any nastiness in regards to my own identity here on RPG. When I see a questionable or outright hateful comment I get annoyed, ignore it and move on. I don't feel unsafe at all RPG, I like this forum. Am I still for a rule re-write to help others feel safer? Absolutely.

[Zombiedude101]

Why does there need to be anything special here? Just use common sense and make it clear that genuine bigotry of any sort won't be tolerated, simple as. I feel like this is making a mountain out of a bloody mole hill. No need for a big deal here.

[Kuro]

@Zombiedude101

I'm not speaking on Franken's behalf, but as I understand it the problem with this current rule mentioned (that being the "Respect all members" rule) is that it focuses on targeted harassment of individuals, and does not explicitly cover attacks on a group or identity. The change Franken suggests would make it clear that bigotry in any form isn't allowed on the site. It may seem like common sense, but I think most of you might agree sometimes common sense is a lot to ask of a person.

@Yankee

Numerous people through out the talks on Discord have mentioned that they've witnessed people abusing this rule and using minorites like LGBT as a punching bag. Even @Chai, who is currently a chat moderator on the Discord, has mentioned that she has had to argue against people trying to defend their racist, homophobic, misogynistic, etc. comments, saying that they hadn't broken RPG rules even though what they said was incredibly derogatory towards said groups.

And even if you think it's "making a mountain out of a bloody molehill", if it helps minorities like myself feel safer on the guild, then surely it won't hurt to change/clarify it, no?

[Zombiedude101]

@Zombiedude101

<Snipped quote by Yankee>

Numerous people through out the talks on Discord have mentioned that they've witnessed people abusing this rule and using minorites like LGBT as a punching bag. Even @Chai, who is currently a chat moderator on the Discord, has mentioned that she has had to argue against people trying to defend their racist, homophobic, misogynistic, etc. comments, saying that they hadn't broken RPG rules even though what they said was incredibly derogatory towards said groups.

And even if you think it's "making a mountain out of a bloody molehill", if it helps minorities like myself feel safer on the guild, then surely it won't hurt to change/clarify it, no?

@Kuro

To be fair, that's the same logic as the Nazis and the Soviets claiming they didn't commit war crimes against each others' POWs because they never signed the conventions surrounding prisoners. Just cunts trying to get around the rules which surely should fall under bigotry/being a cunt and be bannable anyway. These people have been banned, right? That's what you do with those autistic manchildren, you don't try and argue rules with them you just give them the boot for behaving like toxic assholes. Simple.

[BrokenPromise]

I just want specifics on what's been going on and how a solution would be done because other sites have overreacted to issues like these in the past and overcorrected in a way that punishes people who aren't even part of the problem. I'd hate to see that happen on the Guild.

@Dagger

This really isn't being stressed enough in this discussion. I'd like to expand on it.

Like most of the non-discord-going-forum-goers, I don't know what it's like on discord. If bigotry is prevalent on discord, than it should probably be addressed. But make no mistake about it: changing the rules is nothing to be taken lightly. It's not as simple as "don't be a bigot" and then everyone engages in healthy conversation in total comfort. People outside the minority will have extra pressure placed on them to conform to the new rules. For some this won't be a problem. But it's very easy to take things out of context, and you can easily create a situation where people get banned for some perfectly innocent banter.

An example of this is that I have a friend who very casually calls things gay. As in "Sounds gay, I'm in" or sometimes just responds with "gay" to an observation I made. I would think that if these rules were implemented, it would be very easy for someone to call him out on this behavior and get him banned. And for what? A comment that was done purely for amusement? He plays gay characters! The real problem is that once these rules get implemented on discord, it wouldn't be too hard to also have them moved onto the forum as well. I don't know how the guild was before my arrival 4-5 years ago, but things have been pretty tame during my stay. Minus the bot invasion but w/e.

Historically, Mahz made this forum so that people didn't have to roleplay on sites with heavy administration. If there's a problem, the community is expected to report it to a mod, who then has the authority to do something about it. This has created a forum community that knows how to look after itself. People treat each other with respect for the most part, and we can speak without fear of getting hammered by a moderator who's in the mood to use their power. What few times people go to far, mods are called in, and the problem is dealt with. Maybe it doesn't work on discord, I wouldn't know.

I think I speak for everyone when I say we're fine with altering the rules to make people feel safer. What I'm not okay with is altering the rules in such a way that it makes the majority of posters feel less safe to speak, and that's what a rule change will do if not handled with the utmost care.

[BrokenPromise]

You're preaching to the choir, @Zombiedude101. I think the rules as they presently are do a perfect job of protecting all guild members without making anyone feel unsafe. I'm unsure why they wouldn't work on discord, but without seeing the offending posts I can't really judge.

[Ammokkx]

So, I know I said I wasn't going to mingle overmuch in this thread anymore (as in, engage in the discussion at all) and I'm still not really intent on picking much of any sides here. That being said, I think I have a... somewhat new angle to tackle this from, considering current progression of the discussion?

So, basically, the issue as I see it right now is "There's nothing to really protect members against generally vile statements not targeted to any specific users", right? And I do agree there- the rules don't cover ideas, they only cover individuals. That being said, there was an incident on the status bar yesterday that reminded me of the discussion, which I lampshaded at the time. Notorious shitposter Gorgenmast made a status saying something along the lines of "Awww yeah, can't wait to take my estrogen pills. BABY WANTS XER BREAKFAST 🍽️😍" which, in my humble opinion, was pretty poor taste even by his standards. Now, I thought "okay, yeah, statuses like these make me see the case for why the rules could be changed..." since I had no grounds to report it.

Thing is, though? When I looked to grab a screenshot of it for posterity for this very post, it was gone.

Make no mistake for anyone not in the loop; a status along the lines of what I typed above was right underneath my own. In fact, I would've never made my joke if it hadn't been there. This leaves me... conflicted. Gorgen is not the type to delete his own statuses, to my mind. It is entirely possible he took it down by himself, but I find it unlikely. Much more likely is that either a mod saw it spontaneously or someone reported it and, in either case, the mod deleted the status.

This shows that the mods do, in fact, not tolerate rather obvious cases of bigotry or otherwise nasty behaviour. While one case is hardly representative of the site as a whole, it reinforces my intial belief of "People are safe and welcomed on this site". After all, there was a problem and the mods took care of it.

That being said, I do agree that the incident in question is not actually covered in the rules. It's more of an implied, common sense thing to be generally nice to each-other, a real "Fonz cool" moment. Fonz cool, nebulous as it may be, seems to still be the core philosophy behind moderation. On one hand the problem expressed in this thread does get taken care of (on-site, at least), on the other, the rules do not accurately reflect what actual moderation policy is.

I'm not entirely sure what side to take, myself. I'm naturally more inclined to my original position of "There's no problem, therefor the rules are fine" but I'm not entirely convinced of my own stance given the, admittedly singular, incident.

I do however agree with broken; if the issue primarily occurs on the guild discord and does not reflect the attitude of members on the site, then the guild discord should be the one to change. I propose a more general "Keep the status bar clean." rule, instead. Something more along the lines of "Do not post any excessively controversial, disgusting or otherwise abrasive messages in the status bar. It is the front page of the website; we do not want to turn away members at the door."

Granted the exact wording I use is most definitely not the right way to go about it, but it's merely an illustration. I think a rule like this is a fair compromise and also more in-line with how the moderators have historically handled the status bar.

[Dark Cloud]

Let me ask a simple question: Can you tell the difference between what is a joke and what isn't?

The answer is different depending on the person, I'm not saying that it's necessarily okay to make offensive jokes but it depends on if the joke being made is intentionally targeting a group in a negative manner or not. People are different in their opinions and views so it is literally impossible to gauge what is funny or what is offensive.

It's all a matter of perspective.

[mickilennial]

Let me ask a simple question: Can you tell the difference between what is a joke and what isn't?

The answer is different depending on the person, I'm not saying that it's necessarily okay to make offensive jokes but it depends on if the joke being made is intentionally targeting a group in a negative manner or not. People are different in their opinions and views so it is literally impossible to gauge what is funny or what is offensive.

It's all a matter of perspective.

@Dark Cloud

Bigots tend to use that excuse to hide their true intentions, reminder.

[Dark Cloud]

<Snipped quote by Dark Cloud>
Bigots tend to use that excuse to hide their true intentions, reminder.

@TGM

Please don't misconstrue my comment, I was just trying to say it is difficult to say what is offensive as people can be offended by a wide variety of things. Don't try to paint my words in a negative light.

EDIT: I'll also add that what I'm trying to say is that if we try to enforce more restrictions on what people say, it will take good judgement to see what kind of words deserve punishment.

EDI 2: I believe I may have misunderstood you, I thought you were calling me a bigot and immediately got defensive because of my original interpretation of your comment.

[POOHEAD189]

@Zombiedude101
Hold on, ok. I understand we want to discuss these things and you're welcome to it, but it has made some people uncomfortable with you sort of spilling out all of these slurs/buzz words so next time try not to use blatant examples, or at least put asterisks in there. And when the new rules come up, I won't be able to just give you a talking to. So just keep it in mind.