[OOC] Ultimate One Universe: Emergence

[Lord Wraith]

<Snipped quote by Lord Wraith>

Hey I said I'm not continuing. I didn't say you guys had to stop

@Sep

I can't do this without you.

[Sep]

Just when I finally wrote something new in 14 months that wasn't phoned in or copy-pasted from a previous RP and get my upward writing momentum back this ends. Well, that's a shame. I'll be on the look out for what's next.

I do still feel bad for being unable to commit to Moon Knight earlier on, but it is like that sometimes.

@mickilennial

Again. You guys are all free to continue, I just am not in a position to GM myself

[mickilennial]

Again. You guys are all free to continue, I just am not in a position to GM myself

@Sep

I imagine the thread creator would have to place new GMs in place if people were to continue or apply for the roleplay, no?

[Master Bruce]

I think the best thing would be to start a new thread. But if you wanted to just continue this specific roleplay in a different thread, by all means.

[Master Bruce]

That said, I don't think a continuation is what's being pursued, at least from what I understand of the games being considered by different prospective GM's. But I'm sure some overlap would be possible if players wanted to migrate their work here into the next thing.

[mickilennial]

Suppose it is just a waiting game, then.

[Pacifista]

I think the best thing would be to start a new thread. But if you wanted to just continue this specific roleplay in a different thread, by all means.

@Master Bruce

For clarity's sake, I do intend to continue my characters somehow (on my own or in the next one as applicable). I only posted earlier because I wrote the post today and thought it would be funny. :^]

[Sep]

<Snipped quote by Master Bruce>

For clarity's sake, I do intend to continue my characters somehow (on my own or in the next one as applicable). I only posted earlier because I wrote the post today and thought it would be funny. :^]

@Pacifista

Wraith was contemplating writing a post just because it would be funny

[AndyC]

<Snipped quote by Pacifista>

Wraith was contemplating writing a post just because it would be funny

@Sep

New strategy unlocked: declare the game dead as soon as it starts, then get everyone to keep it going in perpetuity as a troll.

[Lord Wraith]

<Snipped quote by Sep>

New strategy unlocked: declare the game dead as soon as it starts, then get everyone to keep it going in perpetuity as a troll.

@AndyC

At the very least, it seems to be a strategy for an active OOC.

[AndyC]

A bit of real talk, something that I've been thinking about and that I'm sure has been discussed before: are we placing too much pressure-to-perform on ourselves?

Don't get me wrong; you guys are incredible writers, and I really do love reading your material. But at least from my experience, the pressure to keep up with you all and live up to my own standards means I end up taking longer and longer to get posts out, and I start to develop a mentality of "no post is better than a bad post." That starts becoming a whole negative-feedback-thing, where I feel bad for not posting, so I start writing a post, and then I burn myself out trying to make it perfect, then I end up not posting it, and then I feel bad for not posting, etc.

While I'm not suggesting we lower our standard of quality, maybe we reduce the expected quantity. Say, five to seven paragraphs per post, something you can knock out relatively quickly and keep the pace going (and make it easier to post multiple times per day). That would hopefully reduce the pressure of feeling like one has to write a chapter of a novel every time one logs in. It'd also hopefully encourage more interaction and collaboration, getting everyone out of the proverbial gates a lot faster, and might allow for more emergent storytelling rather than feeling like we need to have whole complex plots laid out from the start.

I'd also kinda like to see a more focused scope, having all of the player-characters be in roughly the same place at the same time. If, say, everyone's already a denizen of Gotham City, or a member of the X-Men, or what have you, it might be easier to jump in and start jamming with each other than when everyone has to spend weeks or months establishing their particular lore before venturing out to cross paths. More often than not, that leads to less of a group roleplay and more of a collection of individual fanfics with the occasional crossover.

While I'm always gonna be the type to hyper-obsess over how I'd reimagine every detail of Superman or Spider-Man (even though you bastards never pick me when I apply for them), I'm also seeing that the familiar approach pretty much always leads to me burning out fast and then feeling bad about getting burned out. Once upon a time, those of us who came over from the old Superherohype forums were able to sustain games for a year or more at a time, and a lot of that was a more rapid-fire output of short-form posts only punctuated with the occasional big one. I think the key to sustainability is the ability to make something a routine, and I think recalibrating to shorter (but still high-quality) posting would be a lot easier to make a routine out of.

[mickilennial]

A bit of real talk, something that I've been thinking about and that I'm sure has been discussed before: are we placing too much pressure-to-perform on ourselves?

@AndyC

As a writer improves in their craft, their standards for themselves and those they write alongside exponentially increase. I have found in recent years returning to the basics, how I fell in love with the hobby, and the ability to be concise and not as strict on detail has led to better results. Of course, I also took a year off of writing but this was something I started doing a little before life handed me a metaphorical knuckle sandwich.

In the 2013 and earlier games there was also more interactivity as well as flexibility. We interacted more, mentioned stuff in other people's posts, and were more free-flowing and experimental, and so on. I have oft struggled how to return to that and you guys were doing this for almost a decade before you came here in '13. Perhaps some thinking adjustments would be astute?

I start to develop a mentality of "no post is better than a bad post." That starts becoming a whole negative-feedback-thing, where I feel bad for not posting, so I start writing a post, and then I burn myself out trying to make it perfect, then I end up not posting it, and then I feel bad for not posting, etc.

@AndyC

This is a cycle I got trapped in with a lot of these games and to break it is to just simply follow an old writing advice I got: "fail faster" which essentially meant don't worry on perfection, engage with the imperfections and move forward. Polish it later if need be.

It might be easier to jump in and start jamming with each other than when everyone has to spend weeks or months establishing their particular lore before venturing out to cross paths. More often than not, that leads to less of a group roleplay and more of a collection of individual fanfics with the occasional crossover.

@AndyC

Some people prefer to be isolated and do their own thing, but for those of us who are not that this would be wise, I agree. And sometimes we wait for a "ideal" story window too much and so the window never opens. Sometimes the right time is to do it at the wrong time and play it by ear.

[Hound55]

A bit of real talk, something that I've been thinking about and that I'm sure has been discussed before: are we placing too much pressure-to-perform on ourselves?

@AndyC

Yes. In fact, I'd go so far as to say 'almost entirely'.

Don't get me wrong; you guys are incredible writers, and I really do love reading your material. But at least from my experience, the pressure to keep up with you all and live up to my own standards means I end up taking longer and longer to get posts out, and I start to develop a mentality of "no post is better than a bad post." That starts becoming a whole negative-feedback-thing, where I feel bad for not posting, so I start writing a post, and then I burn myself out trying to make it perfect, then I end up not posting it, and then I feel bad for not posting, etc.

@AndyC

I stopped aiming for an unattainable perfection long ago. But conversations with others... I'd say this hits the nail on the head perfectly.

While I'm not suggesting we lower our standard of quality, maybe we reduce the expected quantity. Say, five to seven paragraphs per post, something you can knock out relatively quickly and keep the pace going (and make it easier to post multiple times per day). That would hopefully reduce the pressure of feeling like one has to write a chapter of a novel every time one logs in. It'd also hopefully encourage more interaction and collaboration, getting everyone out of the proverbial gates a lot faster, and might allow for more emergent storytelling rather than feeling like we need to have whole complex plots laid out from the start.

@AndyC

I think this will fall short, because I suspect its self-driven and more a case of people trying to 'keep up with the joneses' without factoring in the fact that many of us are harsher with ourselves, than assessing the works of others and/or have higher expectations for ourselves after seeing what others do.

This isn't the situation in my own case, its just been entirely lack of personal time as other aspects of my life grind me into the dirt. But it HAS been the case for me in the past when I was younger. The perfect being the enemy of the good.

In all honesty its a personal problem for each and every one of us, rather than something that could be fixed by rules at the outset, however well-meaning. Because people don't compare their work and production to the rules minimum in most cases, and rather their impression of the works of those around them that they've been reading.

People just need to be aware that everyone would rather read and see something that surpasses their own personal standards which keeps the RP moving, then read the works of an RP which becomes consigned to the scrapheap in a month or two.

And then once you realise you're just appealing to peoples own standards... which are entirely subjective in nature... ultimately, volume becomes more valuable than a handful of masterpieces which appeal to our own sensibilities before the whole thing collapses under its own lack of momentum.

I'm an old man and I've come to realise my bullshit is my bullshit, and at some point I've just got to get over it. Get the thing done.

Or, as a wise Southern philosopher managed to say in more concise terms than I am capable of mustering...

POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOST!

I'd also kinda like to see a more focused scope, having all of the player-characters be in roughly the same place at the same time. If, say, everyone's already a denizen of Gotham City, or a member of the X-Men, or what have you, it might be easier to jump in and start jamming with each other than when everyone has to spend weeks or months establishing their particular lore before venturing out to cross paths. More often than not, that leads to less of a group roleplay and more of a collection of individual fanfics with the occasional crossover.

@AndyC

This is one of the things I liked seeing about one pitch I saw someone working on.

Not even necessarily JUST one city, either... but yeah, limiting the world in scope.

One thought I had was a world with three major cities, and GM posts addressing specific cities in addition to whatever character posts those GMs have.

I'll need a few weeks to get a handle of stuff in my own life, move house and get settled, but yeah, stuff to think about.

While I'm always gonna be the type to hyper-obsess over how I'd reimagine every detail of Superman or Spider-Man (even though you bastards never pick me when I apply for them), I'm also seeing that the familiar approach pretty much always leads to me burning out fast and then feeling bad about getting burned out. Once upon a time, those of us who came over from the old Superherohype forums were able to sustain games for a year or more at a time, and a lot of that was a more rapid-fire output of short-form posts only punctuated with the occasional big one. I think the key to sustainability is the ability to make something a routine, and I think recalibrating to shorter (but still high-quality) posting would be a lot easier to make a routine out of.

@AndyC

I don't disagree with anything I've seen, with the possible exceptio of thinking 'smaller minimums' as a set rule would actually have an impact.

Most of the issues have been pressure applied by the self-driven nature of things.

[Roman]

[Hound55]

@Roman

What's the bet the artist is secretly loathing the stick figure nature of his artwork on this perfectly illustrated point...

[mattmanganon]

@Roman 38 too few for Lex.

[Hound55]

@Roman 38 too few for Lex.

@mattmanganon

Terrible...

[Retired]

I'd also kinda like to see a more focused scope, having all of the player-characters be in roughly the same place at the same time. If, say, everyone's already a denizen of Gotham City, or a member of the X-Men, or what have you, it might be easier to jump in and start jamming with each other than when everyone has to spend weeks or months establishing their particular lore before venturing out to cross paths. More often than not, that leads to less of a group roleplay and more of a collection of individual fanfics with the occasional crossover.

@AndyC

This has always been my spiel. Open sandbox games just don't work as well as those with linear or limited focus. There are too many options, not enough railroads, and that leads to less interaction and more aimlessness.

One thought I had was a world with three major cities, and GM posts addressing specific cities in addition to whatever character posts those GMs have.

@Hound55

Also, this. When I first advocated for the idea of mini-events years back, and then implemented the system in my own attempt at one of these games, this was basically the idea. Using events to narrow the focus and pull collaborative attention together can work wonders. It just requires 1) a GM team who will consistently set up events, as well as ensure they are regularly updated so as to not drag on with or without player input, and 2) a player base who is willing to engage with the events.

I think a lot of inspiration for that concept can be taken from an old game @Lord Wraith ran on Iwaku nearly a decade ago. Set in a singular, vast city broken into different sectors that each had their own ongoing events and occasional mini-events that sprung up. The premise worked well, although there was some issues when it came to certain player interactions that caused it to fail, but overall the concept can work. That's a game that was relatively short-lived but that I enjoyed a lot due to the structure that was provided.

I think, though, given how easy it is for a single GM running all of these things to burn out, that any such system or similar premise would greatly benefit from having an "ideas man" who creates the storylines for the events and knows when to advance them, and the "producer" who actually gets the posts up and running. Divide and conquer. Share the burden. Valuable collaboration abound.

[Sep]

Just to join in on this conversation.

I think as we get older time squeezes is all in different ways that does making it a little harder to run one of these.

I mean part of the downfall of momentum for this one is one of the shitty Co-Gms went and got married then had a honeymoon where they couldn't really post.

Didn't he know he had a game to help run?!

I agree with pretty much everything everyone else had said, trying to bring players together (geographically in-game), figuring out easy quick events and crossovers, less emphasis on solo storytelling.

I think the biggest one is trying to remove from ourselves the stigma that a short post is a bad post. Whenever I get a spare 30 minutes and I write a post I always end up sending it to two or three people cause I think it's absolutely horrible (and it might be), but atleast it's a post.

I mean realistically I think if you were to combine everyone's posts most of them would be about the same length.

End post length discrimination today. As my wife likes to say - size doesn't matter.

[Bounce]

... other than when everyone has to spend weeks or months establishing their particular lore before venturing out to cross paths. More often than not, that leads to less of a group roleplay and more of a collection of individual fanfics with the occasional crossover.

@AndyC

Damn. Calling me out over here.