Suicide, Tragic or Selfish?

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

I've got to say Brovo, that I disagree whole heartedly with you opinion that suicide should be allowed.
Speaking as a formerly suicidal person, it's not a good thing to be in that position, for sure. However, what's even worse is if you commit the deed that's on your mind. Now I don't believe suicide will end you up in Hell like Christianity teaches, I believe it's a sin you can't atone for though.

I can say that After being given to five strangers for gang bang "fun" at the age of seven, being seduced and used in broad daylight by a teenage boy at around the same age, then being forced to watch as the teenager who seduced my much younger mind is literally chopped to death in front of me with an axe, that I would not, even as I live now in my current state of uncertainty, look into the future and see that I wasn't there.

I"ve had moments of depression. If you linger on the board long enough, I have some bizarre posts of mine where I'm not feeling too good, and I say weird, Emo Gothic bullshit things. I've had moments in my life where I just wished I wasn't alive anymore. Suicide isn't necessarily selfishness even though selfishness is probably involved, (Although a lot of the component of suicide has GOT to be some kind of psychological or brain related problem).I can safely say at this point that it's best if people let their Maker decide their fate. We have a purpose for being in the world, and it's just not worth it to fight our own purpose, for the sake of the alleviation of suffering.

I have no condemning attitude towards people who have been through or are going through this however. The joy that cometh in the morning just isn't perceivable by us mere mortals.

[So Boerd]

ActRaiserTheReturned said
I've got to say Brovo, that I disagree whole heartedly with you opinion that suicide should be allowed.Speaking as a formerly suicidal person, it's not a good thing to be in that position, for sure. However, what's even worse is if you commit the deed that's on your mind. Now I don't believe suicide will end you up in Hell like Christianity teaches, I believe it's a sin you can't atone for though. I can say that After being given to five strangers for gang bang "fun" at the age of seven, being seduced and used in broad daylight by a teenage boy at around the same age, then being forced to watch as the teenager who seduced my much younger mind is literally chopped to death in front of me with an axe, that I would not, even as I live now in my current state of uncertainty, look into the future and see that I wasn't there.I"ve had moments of depression. If you linger on the board long enough, I have some bizarre posts of mine where I'm not feeling too good, and I say weird, Emo Gothic bullshit things. I've had moments in my life where I just wished I wasn't alive anymore. Suicide isn't necessarily selfishness even though selfishness is probably involved, (Although a lot of the component of suicide has GOT to be some kind of psychological or brain related problem).I can safely say at this point that it's best if people let their Maker decide their fate. We have a purpose for being in the world, and it's just not worth it to fight our own purpose, for the sake of the alleviation of suffering. I have no condemning attitude towards people who have been through or are going through this however. The joy that cometh in the morning just isn't perceivable by us mere mortals.

Good God...I am so sorry.

[Brovo]

Frizan said
Brovo! But....but...but...BIGOTS!!!!!!!!!

So Boerd said Let me cut through the BS to get to the salient BS, the very specious statement you base this ridiculous text wall on.

Ad hominems. Ahh... Classy.

So Boerd said "Someone dehumanizing you via racism is an act against your person done for the purpose of devaluing you as a human being. It is aggressive, an attack." No, an attack on my person is getting punched.

To attack is to be offensive or violent or so on. One can go and verbally attack people, or attack a building, or attack a theory, or attack a concept. The latter two are obviously not crimes. Still, I'm glad you likely grew up an environment where you weren't choked down with racism, or watched others get attacked for it. It must have been pleasant.

So Boerd said I don't care what stupid people say. Call me chink, I don't care. None of my human rights are violated.

So you're going to totally disregard racially motivated hate crimes, such as those by the KKK and the Nazis? Your argument is heavily flawed in that you are completely ignoring all possible examples except the one you want to see.

Comparing racial slurs to suicide is comparing a hand gun to a meteor striking a planet: The level at which both operate is entirely irrelevant to one another, and making the comparison is in and of itself completely ludicrous on the face of it.

So Boerd said With your nonsense "attack" argument out of the way (And what about all the people who write notes? Isn't that an attack?)

Yes. Yes it is, technically. However, as I said earlier (which you were obviously incapable of reading) I don't consider racism on the same level as, say, murder. It's still a serious problem, but not at the same level.

Because you know. The world isn't black and white... You know that, right?

So Boerd said The rest of the text wall is simply contradictory. Saying the Nbomb is something the bigot does with his own body and as you claim, feelings do not matter when it comes to how an individual uses his own body. Try being ideologically consistent.

Racism is either a belief or an act against a person.
Suicide is the act of ending one's own existence regardless of those around you.

My ideology is consistent. You simply continue to insist on using a faulty argument that predicates itself entirely on comparing two entirely separate issues whose only comparable characteristic is that they both cause pain. Which is, as I said earlier in case you weren't reading, ludicrous on the face of it.

If that kind of comparison is allowed, then committing suicide is just as bad as turning someone down for sex. You hurt their feelings either way, right?

So Boerd said But so what? Accepting the premise that being an "attack" somehow alters the situation, what does it matter? The hypothetical mother is still knowingly inflicting more pain. I do not give a damn what your intentions are, I care about the consequences. There is simply no comparison in the level of damage suicidal mother causes vs dumb bigot.

The hypothetical mother could also inflict pain by doing anything that might offend another human being, which obviously includes eating, breathing, sleeping, belief or non-belief in or of anything, and so on.

One's being upset or offended is no legitimate cause for concern in terms of the moral compass. A person who wants to die is acting upon themselves. A person who commits racially-motivated acts is nearly always acting upon others, not themselves.

Also, pointing out the lunacy of your own comparative argument, and then not seeing how it really is lunacy. The irony.

Dervish said
I really don't want to know how a topic discussing the ethics of suicide turned into arguing about hate crimes.

Because someone seriously thinks calling someone a chink or a nigger is an equivalent comparison to suicide. Just like comparing a cracker to a massive, double chocolate cake in terms of how much calories they'll add to your diet.

I do have to say, it's pretty silly.

So Boerd said
That does not explain the inconsistency in your philosopy. Here, use my take on the examples as an example of ideological consistency.Suicidal mother: Is bad because the mother is causing enormous life shattering pain.Bigot: Is bad as the bigot inflicts pain to make himself feel better.Relationship: Unlike the family, all parties are entered by choice and as such may leave by choice. You cannot simply decide one day you are not my biological parent. The incredibly strong bond between parent and child is so much stronger. I can get another girlfriend, but I only get one mother.

You can also get another girlfriend if the one you currently have commits suicide, if we're talking from cold logic here.

As for the "so strong" bond between parent and child, how about those adopted children? How about people who have mentors, which is intrinsically a parent-child relationship? How about people who have very little ties to their own biological parents? (ex: I can say from personal experience that if my mother died tomorrow I'd probably spit on the grave.)

I've already plainly stated how racism is an act against someone while suicide is an act against the self, and you've made no effort to counter it... Instead choosing to appeal to pathos entirely and nearly exclusively. Tsk.

ActRaiserTheReturned said I've got to say Brovo, that I disagree whole heartedly with you opinion that suicide should be allowed.

And that's alright. I have no intention of trying to "convert" people to the "suicide is okay" camp.

ActRaiserTheReturned said Speaking as a formerly suicidal person, it's not a good thing to be in that position, for sure.

I'll need context before I could comment on this, but to quickly addendum in: I do ask for a sound mind. Someone with a mental disorder or otherwise is not of sound mind.

ActRaiserTheReturned said However, what's even worse is if you commit the deed that's on your mind. Now I don't believe suicide will end you up in Hell like Christianity teaches, I believe it's a sin you can't atone for though.

You can't say sorry to the people you hurt when you kill yourself, so yes, it is something you cannot atone for, I'll grant that.

ActRaiserTheReturned said I can say that After being given to five strangers for gang bang "fun" at the age of seven, being seduced and used in broad daylight by a teenage boy at around the same age, then being forced to watch as the teenager who seduced my much younger mind is literally chopped to death in front of me with an axe, that I would not, even as I live now in my current state of uncertainty, look into the future and see that I wasn't there.

...Holy shit did that actually happen to you or is that an example? O.o Either way, I'd say that's trauma related, and wouldn't fall under the sound mind cause I have in mind.

When I think "sound mind" I think of a person dying in a hospital who wants to pull the plug and die when they're ready to die, or a person who is extremely old and frail and can no longer live without assistance asking for euthanasia, or rare cases where a perfectly functional person decides they simply don't want to live anymore, not due to some kind of trauma or mental disorder, but simply because they don't want to exist.

In your case, yeah, I would have stepped in myself to stop a suicide. It would have been tragic.

ActRaiserTheReturned said I"ve had moments of depression.

So have I. I think everyone has. I also wouldn't consider those of sound mind, though, depression and all that.

[quote=ActRaiserTheReturned]If you linger on the board long enough, I have some bizarre posts of mine where I'm not feeling too good, and I say weird, Emo Gothic bullshit things.[/quotes]

Never seen them myself, no.

ActRaiserTheReturned said I've had moments in my life where I just wished I wasn't alive anymore. Suicide isn't necessarily selfishness even though selfishness is probably involved, (Although a lot of the component of suicide has GOT to be some kind of psychological or brain related problem).

And now you see why I add the sound mind clause. Suicide because one's mind isn't healthy is tragic. I wouldn't go so far as to say selfish, but definitely tragic, and should be helped like someone suffering PTSD or manic depression, before they would commit to a decision that, in an otherwise sane mind, they would not.

ActRaiserTheReturned said I can safely say at this point that it's best if people let their Maker decide their fate. We have a purpose for being in the world, and it's just not worth it to fight our own purpose, for the sake of the alleviation of suffering. I have no condemning attitude towards people who have been through or are going through this however. The joy that cometh in the morning just isn't perceivable by us mere mortals.

Hm. I suppose that's where we are ideologically different. I don't believe there is any kind of deity, maker, or otherwise supernatural force. I also don't believe we have any kind of constructed purpose, and hold to the belief that the point to life is to find the point. (ex: If you don't know what you want to do, go find something to do, that is your new point to life.)

I will agree on one point though. I have no idea what happens after death. Could be wonderful. Could be horrible. Could be nothing at all. My mortality makes it impossible for me to ever know that for certain.

Also, I'm sorry all that shit happened to you, and I'm glad you managed to pull through. Even if we are often ideologically opposing.

[So Boerd]

I do not think they are equivalent, I think suicide is much worse. And I was not talking about hate crimes, I was talking about the racial slur guy to prove how silly an ideology which sets suicide as better is. You have been forced to add violence to my racism comparison to maintain consistency.

Ultimately, I find all suicide wrong on a religious level. What I can prove secularly is that parents should not commit suicide because they are already commited to obligations. When you had the child, you committed to raise it.

[Brovo]

So Boerd said I do not think they are equivalent, I think suicide is much worse.

Then stop comparing them. It only makes you look the fool, when the position against suicide is a fine one to have by its own base nature. I'm not much one for being emotionally connected to people, so this is simply two different minds seeing two different things from the same situation.

I see it as person X wants to die: Let them under Y and Z qualifications.

You see it as person X wants to die, but it will hurt other people: Don't let them.

You don't have to involve an asinine, nonsensical comparison in that. All it does is weaken your argument. This is a tip for the future, if you stick around.

So Boerd said And I was not talking about hate crimes, I was talking about the racial slur guy to prove how silly an ideology which sets suicide as better is.

I haven't in any way, shape, or form, stated that racism is worse than suicide. I haven't even stated a position on whether suicide is good or bad, right or wrong. I've stated that it is, and that it is a person's own decision, and that if they are of sane mind, they should be allowed to do so. Meanwhile racism is either a belief, which a person is allowed to have, or a series of actions against a person with the intent to dehumanize and destroy, which is irrevocable wrong.

So Boerd said You have been forced to add violence to my racism comparison to maintain consistency.

Because it's the only way your comparison could even be considered sane. Comparing death to anything not death related tends to be a complete failure in terms of how serious the two articles being compared are.

So Boerd said Ultimately, I find all suicide wrong on a religious level.

And I'm an atheist. So this is probably why you're not getting through to me.

So Boerd said What I can prove secularly is that parents should not commit suicide because they are already commited to obligations. When you had the child, you committed to raise it.

Sure, I dig that. Until the kid reaches an age where they can self-sustain themselves, it is actually detrimental to the continued survival and independence of the dependents.

So we're in agreement there.

[Dervish]

Brovo said
Because someone seriously thinks calling someone a chink or a nigger is an equivalent comparison to suicide. Just like comparing a cracker to a massive, double chocolate cake in terms of how much calories they'll add to your diet.

I do have to say, it's pretty silly.

What.

Silly is what we like to call a massive understatement. Last I checked, derogatory terms don't typically end up putting bodies in the ground.

[Brovo]

Dervish said
Silly is what we like to call a massive understatement. Last I checked, derogatory terms don't typically end up putting bodies in the ground.

It was likely more of a miscommunication. Hopefully it is now resolved.

[So Boerd]

My racial slur comparison is so ludicrous to prove a point. I think Suicide is worse. MagicMagnum was the original target and iirc, he said suicide was alright but racial slurs were not, and I think we can all agree that is silly.

I do not think anyone should be held from suicide if they are of sound mind, (catch 22, if you are suicidal by definition you are not of sound mind) however, I maintain that it is immoral.

Now, your latin is terrible, by the way. It's argumentum ad populem, not argument ad popularim, and ad hominem (Ad, meaning to, and Hominem, meaning man) means using a personal insult to discredit an argument, as opposed to simply calling the argument dumb as mere commentary.

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

Dervish said
Silly is what we like to call a massive understatement. Last I checked, derogatory terms don't typically end up putting bodies in the ground.

That's why hate speech laws are retarded. /end of hijacking

[Brovo]

So Boerd said My racial slur comparison is so ludicrous to prove a point. I think Suicide is worse. MagicMagnum was the original target and iirc, he said suicide was alright but racial slurs were not, and I think we can all agree that is silly.I do not think anyone should be held from suicide if they are of sound mind, (catch 22, if you are suicidal by definition you are not of sound mind) however, I maintain that it is immoral.Now, your latin is terrible, by the way. It's argumentum ad populem, not argument ad popularim, and ad hominem (Ad, meaning to, and Hominem, meaning man) means using a personal insult to discredit an argument, as opposed to simply calling the argument dumb as mere commentary.

Hm. I see. It still weakened your argument from the eyes of a third party, though, so...

Persons who are no longer capable of living without direct assistance, such as the elderly, or those with terminal illnesses, are perfectly within their sound mind to want to end their own lives. Like Alzheimer's disease. It literally kills your brain slowly, and painfully. You cease functioning as a person and constantly hurt yourself and your family. Or late onset dementia, which a family member of mine has. If they wanted to end their own lives, I wouldn't blame them, and I wouldn't consider it immoral, considering how disconcerting it is for the rest of the family, and as for him... I can't even imagine that. What it must be like to have a normal life slowly unravel into deranged hallucinations and paranoia. Then there's the bedridden, and those living on life support who just want to die with dignity instead of having someone wipe their ass for them.

Where you see a religious wrong, I see a moral right to it. They're in constant pain, it's only going to get worse. Let them die the way they wish to die. The same applies towards those living in crippling poverty with no chance of escape: Let them go. Saving one just so you can throw them back out onto the street again to live cold, lonely lives full of alcohol, drugs, and violence?... That's... No. That's immoral in my eyes if they wished to die to escape that.

I never claimed my Latin to be fantastic. I didn't Google them, nor do I run a spellchecker for OT posts. I tried to type them from memory. Figures I couldn't get it right. Thanks.

ActRaiserTheReturned said
That's why hate speech laws are retarded. /end of hijacking

Eh'. Fine line, but complex shit with many layers. So.

[Turtlicious]

ActRaiserTheReturned said
That's why hate speech laws are retarded. /end of hijacking

Racist lmao.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Note in general before I start.

I'm seeing a number of "It's against God" or "God says so" comments here, and I'd like to remind those that are that not everyone here in atheist.
If that is your reasoning then so be it, I was one religious and I get it. But just be aware that if your goal is to convince others of your standpoint that arguments relating to God aren't going to get you anywhere.

So Boerd said
That does not explain the inconsistency in your philosopy. Here, use my take on the examples as an example of ideological consistency.Suicidal mother: Is bad because the mother is causing enormous life shattering pain.Bigot: Is bad as the bigot inflicts pain to make himself feel better.Relationship: Unlike the family, all parties are entered by choice and as such may leave by choice. You cannot simply decide one day you are not my biological parent. The incredibly strong bond between parent and child is so much stronger. I can get another girlfriend, but I only get one mother.

Like Brovo already highlighted, you can also find other suitable's for a parent relationship.
He himself mentioned he would not be phased at all if his mother died, and although I'm no where close to that I'm also at a position where it would hurt to lose my parents but it would not be life shattering. Being boldly honest the biggest change for me would be losing the support of a parent and largely being stuck in the world on my own. I would hurt a bit from the loss of my parent, but they also are not anywhere close to the strongest bonds/relationships I made with people in my lifetime. At most I'd need a month or two to recover and I'd probably be out there again, and if this was a case of suicide such pain would of lessened, because at least then it's not a case of they died unfairly to something they didn't deserve or want, it was something they wanted and made the conscious choice to do. They're happier dead and honestly that would help me rest more easy with it being something they wanted.

And in one last reference to the comparison above in regards to relationships. To this day I find myself hurting at times from the situation I detailed above, but I still fully admit I was selfish for at any moment (even if for only 2 days) I made it drag on any longer than the other person wanted. But in the end, their choice, they wanted to leave. Who honestly am I to tell them they can or cannot?

I will grant you this, I acknowledge that me and Brovo are part of a minority in how we feel to our parents. Most people have very strong/close bonds to their parents, ones are are unarguably stronger than most if any other relationship they have in their life. So we are coming at this from a different view point (double in that you're saying God's against it, but me and Brovo are also both atheists).

However in response I do ask this, if you had a friend who was terminally ill, not well and honestly wanted to end their suffering and die peacefully would you let them?
If yes why is a family member any different? Don't you want happiness for them like your friend? If no, then we're a bit more of a disagreement here. One I'm still open to try debating if you wish, but one where it may also be wise to simply say to agree to disagree.

ActRaiserTheReturned said I can say that After being given to five strangers for gang bang "fun" at the age of seven, being seduced and used in broad daylight by a teenage boy at around the same age, then being forced to watch as the teenager who seduced my much younger mind is literally chopped to death in front of me with an axe, that I would not, even as I live now in my current state of uncertainty, look into the future and see that I wasn't there.I"ve had moments of depression.

Due to the nature of internet text and it's lack of tone of voice and real-time clarification I'm having trouble telling if this is hypothetical or examples you've actually faced.
Either way it all depends on the individual though, some people react to/handle things better than others. If you in fact went through this yourself then you posses an incredibly strong will and strive to push forward and it's one I applaud you for. But it is not a strong will that everyone will have, some people would simply snap and be broken. It could destroy them and make them unable to enjoy life.

ActRaiserTheReturned said I have some bizarre posts of mine where I'm not feeling too good, and I say weird, Emo Gothic bullshit things. I've had moments in my life where I just wished I wasn't alive anymore.

We've all had those moments.

So Boerd said MagicMagnum was the original target and iirc, he said suicide was alright but racial slurs were not, and I think we can all agree that is silly.

Ah, I can see where we may of had a miss-communication, or better yet where I may not of clarified well enough.
Forgive me, despite my tendency to go on and on with things at times I'm still not the best at always articulating or getting my point or thinking across.

I was trying to argue that suicide was an individual choice, while racial slurs were an attack on another person.
And say an attack on an idea for the purpose of coming to a better consensus on a topic, but an attack whose only purpose is harm.

Suicide is not done for the sake of harming others (and if it ever is... then that person is mentally unstable and I would agree needs help, not to be allowed to kill themselves).
Note however, is this is all assuming it's being using in meanings such as "Lol! You disgusting faggot!".

If this is more how they've been adapted to simple words (ex: Nigga, among two black people) this argument is abolished entirely.

In the end though I'm not trying to argue anything like racial slurs are worse than suicide... But this was probably a bad example/comparison for us to use to begin with as it was bound to lead to confusion, derailment, etc.
I was simply trying to highlight/address that one is a conscious choice over one's self, life and body and the other is a choice with the intention of harm on another.

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

Due to the nature of internet text and it's lack of tone of voice and real-time clarification I'm having trouble telling if this is hypothetical or examples you've actually faced.
Either way it all depends on the individual though, some people react to/handle things better than others. If you in fact went through this yourself then you posses an incredibly strong will and strive to push forward and it's one I applaud you for. But it is not a strong will that everyone will have, some people would simply snap and be broken. It could destroy them and make them unable to enjoy life.

I'm afraid so. Yes, I did go through all the crap and a lot of other stuff that would make you puke if I described it to you.

[Turtlicious]

Actraiser said I've got to say Brovo, that I disagree whole heartedly with you opinion that suicide should be allowed.
Speaking as a formerly suicidal person, it's not a good thing to be in that position, for sure. However, what's even worse is if you commit the deed that's on your mind. Now I don't believe suicide will end you up in Hell like Christianity teaches, I believe it's a sin you can't atone for though.

I can say that After being given to five strangers for gang bang "fun" at the age of seven, being seduced and used in broad daylight by a teenage boy at around the same age, then being forced to watch as the teenager who seduced my much younger mind is literally chopped to death in front of me with an axe, that I would not, even as I live now in my current state of uncertainty, look into the future and see that I wasn't there.

I"ve had moments of depression. If you linger on the board long enough, I have some bizarre posts of mine where I'm not feeling too good, and I say weird, Emo Gothic bullshit things. I've had moments in my life where I just wished I wasn't alive anymore. Suicide isn't necessarily selfishness even though selfishness is probably involved, (Although a lot of the component of suicide has GOT to be some kind of psychological or brain related problem).I can safely say at this point that it's best if people let their Maker decide their fate. We have a purpose for being in the world, and it's just not worth it to fight our own purpose, for the sake of the alleviation of suffering.

I have no condemning attitude towards people who have been through or are going through this however. The joy that cometh in the morning just isn't perceivable by us mere mortals.

Of all the things on god's green earth that didn't happen, this didn't happen the most.

Like... What? How would you even for a second think people would believe this?

e: Like I know this is the internet, but you can not seriously expect us to believe you on your word that you were in a 5-some, prostituted by a teenager, and then witnessed an axe murder. That is stuff that makes the news, or police reports. That is a story with very identifiable and trackable paper trail, and just screams absolute lie from the rafters.

[Jorick]

So Boerd said
How does an old coot yelling naughty words at you violate your sanctity as a human being, but losing your mother does not?

Do you have some right to not be insulted but no right to a mother? Let's get our priorities straight. Pick any 100 people off the street and ask them which they prefer.

Aren't you being selfish for telling the bigot he cannot walk around yelling his foulness? It is his mouth, why can't he say anything he wants that causes no physical harm?

People do not have the right to not be insulted, despite how much people like to whine and cry about being offended. However, people also do not have the right to a mother either. There is no law written or unwritten that says "all children have the right to have a mother." Biologically speaking, all children do come from a mother, but that does not mean they have any right to have a mother present and in their life after being born. Hell, if you go by written law it's perfectly legal for a mother to dispense with the kid immediately by chucking it to an orphanage or arranging for some other people to adopt the thing immediately upon birth. Seems to me like there's no right involved, it's just a preference, and preferences really don't mean anything when you're talking about rights.

I happen to think that the racist should be allowed to run around saying his nonsense, just as others have the right to shout him down en masse if they disagree. I also think that people should be allowed to off themselves if they wish, just as others have the right to try to talk them out of it or be displeased with the action afterward. Freedom of choice, bodily autonomy, etc.

So Boerd said
That does not explain the inconsistency in your philosopy. Here, use my take on the examples as an example of ideological consistency.

Suicidal mother: Is bad because the mother is causing enormous life shattering pain.
Bigot: Is bad as the bigot inflicts pain to make himself feel better.
Relationship: Unlike the family, all parties are entered by choice and as such may leave by choice. You cannot simply decide one day you are not my biological parent. The incredibly strong bond between parent and child is so much stronger. I can get another girlfriend, but I only get one mother.

Your rebuttal to the relationship thing seems inconsistent with your reasoning for parental suicide being wrong: "all parties are entered by choice and as such may leave by choice." Why does that not also apply to parenthood? What makes parenthood so special that it has different rules? What if the parents entered into it by choice as well, why can they not also leave by choice? Why is a child not wanting their parent to leave somehow more compelling than a guy not wanting his girlfriend to leave? Considering the fact that a parent literally can leave by choice either by giving the child away or simply leaving the relationship (which you're cool with) and leaving the child with the other parent, things seem to lean toward it being legally fine to completely severing that "incredibly strong bond" you mention. Those would cause all sorts of pain as well, but they're totally within a parent's rights. Why is suicide such a special case? You have given no reason for why it should be special other than "because it makes kids feel bad," but that ranks right up there with "I'm offended" as a completely baseless justification for what is right or wrong.

Also, what about suicides by people who aren't parents? That won't cause any horrible damage to children, so going off of what you've said so far there is nothing wrong about non-parents committing suicide. How about suicide by parents whose children are adults and thus no longer dependent on them? At that point people should be able to cope with pain and loss, so if their parents bite the bullet then it should be acceptable. Oh, and pertaining to that thing you said about biological parents, what about adoptive parents with no biological children of their own committing suicide? A young kid could always get another adoptive parent, so that should be fine.

What I'm getting at here is that your very specific thing against parents committing suicide is a horrible foundation to try to base a broader anti-suicide stance on. It's shaky and full of so many holes that it's not even worth trying to salvage. You ought to just come right out with your moral and religious objections up front instead of doing the weirdly specific argument and bringing in completely unrelated analogies to try to support your claims.

So Boerd said
I do not think they are equivalent, I think suicide is much worse. And I was not talking about hate crimes, I was talking about the racial slur guy to prove how silly an ideology which sets suicide as better is. You have been forced to add violence to my racism comparison to maintain consistency.Ultimately, I find all suicide wrong on a religious level. What I can prove secularly is that parents should not commit suicide because they are already commited to obligations. When you had the child, you committed to raise it.

You've committed to raising a child once you have it, eh? Once more I feel the need to reference adoption as a completely legal alternative to raising a child you've had. There's also the option of leaving and paying child support, zero raising required, which is also perfectly within someone's rights to do. You still lack any solid reasoning for why suicide is bad, just things that amount to "I don't like it."

ActRaiserTheReturned said
That's why hate speech laws are retarded. /end of hijacking

You appear to be saying that hate crime laws are retarded because saying racist things does not kill people. By that same apparent line of thought, any laws against doing things that do not cause death are also retarded. I could list a lot of things that are illegal yet do not kill people, but I think the explanation of why this is nonsense should suffice without the examples.

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

Turtlicious said
Of all the things on god's green earth that didn't happen, this didn't happen the most.Like... What? How would you even for a second think people would believe this?e: Like I know this is the internet, but you can not seriously expect us to believe you on your word that you were in a 5-some, prostituted by a teenager, and then witnessed an axe murder. That is stuff that makes the news, or police reports. That is a story with very identifiable and trackable paper trail, and just screams absolute lie from the rafters.

There's just like, so much bullshit in that sentence. those sentences.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Turtlicious said
Of all the things on god's green earth that didn't happen, this didn't happen the most.Like... What? How would you even for a second think people would believe this?e: Like I know this is the internet, but you can not seriously expect us to believe you on your word that you were in a 5-some, prostituted by a teenager, and then witnessed an axe murder. That is stuff that makes the news, or police reports. That is a story with very identifiable and trackable paper trail, and just screams absolute lie from the rafters.

I'd like to highlight that stuff like that do not have a 0% probability.
Very little? Yes, low enough I would not take Act's story here and go around referencing it as if it's fact. I'd need hard proof before I do that.
But when simply for the sake of a a discussion, one which will not have any impact outside of the mindsets of those taking part I'm willing to act Act's word for it.
Plus regardless of if the stories were true or not I was willing to address Act's argument and treat it on it's merits, not the history/emotional responses that would accompany it.
As long as the participants are able to keep such emotional bias outside of the arguments and reasoning the harm should be minimal.

Additionally, I'd like to highlight this is the Internet. A community full of people who stay anonymous. and especially on forums are looking for community's to accept them and have a new identity in cause their real life is either hard or won't accept them and on top of that people tend to be more open about bad experiences online than in person. So please note that when online you are both more likely to run into people who have bad experiences than you are in real life and they are also more likely to talk about them.

Now, listening to my own words about separating bias/emotion. I would personally rate the story was rather unbelievable/unlikely. On top of that I would not defend it with an argument such as "You can't disprove it!", that is a huge logical fallacy. But there's nothing gained in trying to tear the claim apart/disprove it assuming it is fake, if anything Act risks having the arguments made have less weight if Act chooses to hide behind them too often for the argument being made. Though I've already said that assuming it is true I hold a strong respect for Act, and I assume it goes without saying that if said story is false my view/opinion of Act would drop drastically. But like said, there's nothing to be gained to trying to tear it apart without knowing 100% for sure that's the case.

[So Boerd]

When an argument is based on immaterial and unfalsifiable premises, I can happily call it settled when all parties are free of contradiction and have thoroughly made their case, however Jorick and Turt, while my mother chose to have me, I did not choose to have the most potent emotional bond with her. The boyfriend entered knowing the risks, I was given no choice.

Now if we ever say, debate minimum wage, I have ample quotes from many prominent liberals on the guild making a strenuous case for its repeal.

[So Boerd]

FYI, "You appear to be saying X" is Turt speech for "You are not saying X, but I want you to so I can argue against a strawman"

[Turtlicious]

So Boerd said
When an argument is based on immaterial and unfalsifiable premises, I can happily call it settled when all parties are free of contradiction and have thoroughly made their case, however Jorick and Turt, while my mother chose to have me, I did not choose to have the most potent emotional bond with her. The boyfriend entered knowing the risks, I was given no choice. Now if we ever say, debate minimum wage, I have ample quotes from many prominent liberals on the guild making a strenuous case for its repeal.

FYI, "You appear to be saying X" is Turt speech for "You are not saying X, but I want you to so I can argue against a strawman"

Oh hey Aussie, you know everyone was allowed back right? You don't need an alt, nuguild means 2nd chances for everyone!

(or third in your case) lmao.

E:

Gwazi said
I'd like to highlight that stuff like that do not have a 0% probability.
Very little? Yes, low enough I would not take Act's story here and go around referencing it as if it's fact. I'd need hard proof before I do that.
But when simply for the sake of a a discussion, one which will not have any impact outside of the mindsets of those taking part I'm willing to act Act's word for it.
Plus regardless of if the stories were true or not I was willing to address Act's argument and treat it on it's merits, not the history/emotional responses that would accompany it.
As long as the participants are able to keep such emotional bias outside of the arguments and reasoning the harm should be minimal.

Additionally, I'd like to highlight this is the Internet. A community full of people who stay anonymous. and especially on forums are looking for community's to accept them and have a new identity in cause their real life is either hard or won't accept them and on top of that people tend to be more open about bad experiences online than in person. So please note that when online you are both more likely to run into people who have bad experiences than you are in real life and they are also more likely to talk about them.

Now, listening to my own words about separating bias/emotion. I would personally rate the story was rather unbelievable/unlikely. On top of that I would not defend it with an argument such as "You can't disprove it!", that is a huge logical fallacy. But there's nothing gained in trying to tear the claim apart/disprove it assuming it is fake, if anything Act risks having the arguments made have less weight if Act chooses to hide behind them too often for the argument being made. Though I've already said that assuming it is true I hold a strong respect for Act, and I assume it goes without saying that if said story is false my view/opinion of Act would drop drastically. But like said, there's nothing to be gained to trying to tear it apart without knowing 100% for sure that's the case.

Ugh, I barely skimmed what you wrote, because again you're doing that thing where you use way more words then necessary.

I was just laughing at him for the absolute ridiculous story. I am allowed to find things humurous and state my opinions am I not? Or are you going to try and rile the troops to get me banned again. You know for a group of people who talk about how much they want intelligent discussion, you guys seem to do a lot to discourage it.